Those who think this possession thing is just a fad expose one, or a combination of the following:
- their soccer age
- their global soccer literacy
- their racial, cultural, or national prejudice
Soccer Age
How long you’ve been involved in the game, plain and simple. If you’re fairly new, say within the past 10 years, it’s quite easy to fall into the trap of thinking this is just a “fad”. This group went from not having this ridiculously dominant Barcelona, and hence no mainstream talk of possession, to the rise of perhaps the greatest team of all time. And the consequent rise of the term possession splashed all over the place.
Thus the perception of a “fad”, or some transient style of play that will go the way of the dodo when Barcelona is dethroned.
Global Soccer Literacy
In general, this could be a tough one if you’re not multi-lingual or multi-cultural. In other words, pure Americana / English.
Anyways, it means you have been mostly stuck with the EPL, MLS, and all accompanying English language media. The precise culture that historically does not place a premium on retention of the ball. Sure, you may watch La Liga, Serie A, Champions League, or whatever … but who are you listening to during pre-game, game, half-time, and post-game? Who’s primarily writing the stuff you’re reading?
And that’s what you’ve been ingesting for years, either as a player, fan, parent, or coach in this country. That’s all you’ve been swimming in!
What this group does not understand is that “possession” has been an emphasis of every traditional soccer power (except England and to a notable degree Germany) forever. And finally, even those countries seem to be biting the bullet and adjusting their fundamental philosophies (or at least the discussions are certainly taking place). How long will it take the US?
Prejudice
Let’s not pretend it doesn’t exist at the racial, cultural, or national level.
A Litmus Test:
If you hear anyone so much as hint at possession being some transient phenomena, you shouldn’t be learning from them.
Global Soccer Literacy : “………Anyways, it means you have been mostly stuck with the EPL, MLS, and all accompanying English language media. The precise culture that historically does not place a premium on retention of the ball. Sure, you may watch La Liga, Serie A, Champions League, or whatever … but who are you listening to during pre-game, game, half-time, and post-game?”
I find this to be very interesting in my situation Gary. I’m truly only able to speak English. However over my 30 years involved in this game I have always been drawn to the beauty of the Brazilian and Dutch style of play. Of course I see plenty of La Liga, EPL and even a little Argentine Primera with English announcers. However years ago I had DirecTV set up an International Dish(free of charge) so that I could get PFC. PFC is a 24/7 Brazilian futebol channel in Portuguese. As a result a huge amount of the games I have been viewing is not only flowing, creative, possession based soccer but most of what I get from the announcers is simply emotion. I’m able to watch and make my own judgements about how each team is playing, the good, the mistakes, etc. It really is nice and allows you to deeply view the match as if you were breaking down film of your own games. I absolutely love it.
Of course I’m just sharing an interesting side note experience as I would never claim possession is a fad. To me possession based is the way to play soccer. More importantly though it is the way to develop players. Even if a player is eventually playing in a counter attack situation being brought up in a possession based system will give that player all the tools he needs. How good was Ramires in Chelsea’s last two matches? Anyone think he was taught/developed in a get the ball forward immediately style? 🙂
Once again, here I say it’s not about where you are from, it’s about your soccer ideas and your competence…of course environment and culture matter (a lot) but those are there to be changed if you can get the right leadership with the right ideas and competence
Please do watch England FA Development Head Sir Trevor Brooking talking about England U17’s…this was two years ago…they know how far they have fallen, they are trying to catch up, they just had a lot of catch up to do, and they do have some serious environment and culture issues on their hands, but if they are serious they too will get there
It’s less than 4 min…it might be a better use of your time than watching a full season of most EPL teams…seriously
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OfHYz2FAds
Anyone watch yet??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OfHYz2FAds
In less than 4 min how many times does the England FA Development Head mentions playing out of the back, or keeping the ball or possession? …yes, England FA!!
And here we are, trying to convince you that Barca’s defeat is not the end of an era, to please stick to Possession soccer and do our young players a favor and let them develop….
WAKE UP AMERICAN SOCCER!!!
…and by the way did you hear him saying that they need to make sure that they “have to take bits and pieces and make that style our own” or “how a traditional 4-4-2 still works just fine”??
…or maybe you head saying that they need to play more Spain and France and that that’s is the only way to be consistently competitive and dominant at international level??
WAKE UP AMERICAN SOCCER!!!
..and by the way while we have been focusing on the men’s game, the women’s status if anything is worst
US has maybe more girls playing soccer than the rest of the world combined, it has a college system the heavily subsidizes the game and allows players to keep playing at what could be a good level conciliating with studies that the rest of world doesn’t, for better or worst it has had what should have been one of top “professional” league systems in the world…
Did you watch the last women’s World Cup??
US had by far the best athletes and “winning mentality” of the competition, it should have rolled over everyone, no?
…but it lost the final for a team of minnows that could keep the ball..still in the final the US probably generated enough chances to win that match
….the far worst sign was in the semi’s against France, US was outplayed out of the park by a great possession team, basically built around a single club team…US stole a win, but is a shocking view…US backs were all physical beast but kept giving the ball away again and again…France outside backs were some of the more composed players on the field…and so on and son…US stole a win on the day, but it was found out short big time…let see how play up at this year’s Olympics…at this year’s Algarve Cup US lost again to Japan, that surprise, surprise dominated possession…
WAKE UP AMERICAN SOCCER!!!
Nuno, totally agree about the USWNT. They are the US auto industry of the 1970s. Way too late to recognize that the world has caught up, not by copying the American women’s style, but by coping their own men’s style. Techical ability (we have little) and tactical awareness (even less) are what France and Japan have used to jump ahead in less than 10 years. And yet I still read comments from our women players (and coach) where they indicate they believe they’re still the best in the world. Hardly, FIFA ranking notwithstanding (England’s men are ranked 7th for cripessakes, so we know how little the FIFA rankings mean.)
Possession soccer will never die, as its what keeps a lead allows you to build a lead and defend it, unless the rules off soccer and the concept change Possession will not go away, the Fad currently is to park the Bus in front of possession oriented teams, but yielding so much possession is bound to bite you in the ass eventually, I hate Barca but even in their loss, I still know they are the greatest assembled team in the world, because of their ability to Possess,
Nice post. Ever since I was 13 years old, in the early 90s I’ve felt possession/Positional was the way to play soccer. Frankly, I found it makes it easier to score. To me, it’s never been a fad. I’m cultivating this style of play with my teams and the great thing is that, particularly, this season they don’t have a problem creating and scoring with quick counterattacking movements. I think this style trains you to play many different styles better than the other way around. Positional teams can play direct when they need to, but is the opposite true?
I do have to make a comment about the development of style of play in places like England. Up until, say 15 years ago, the pitches around the premier league weren’t of very high quality and the weather isn’t cooperative either. It’s harder to play a precise game when the turf conditions aren’t great. The cold weather, to some degree, encourages a more active style of play whereas you go into a warm climate and you’ll kill yourself running your ass off all game. There’s the Dutch argument, that they don’t play like that, to which I’ll say that until Michels and Ajax came on the scene in the mid to late 60s, the Dutch weren’t the most tactically sophisticated country in Europe. Although they’ve always been very technically adept.
Good point Rob. Climate and pitch size/type have led to some of the different styles that have developed in soccer throughout history. However as Michels and others have proven you can take what has proven to be effective and mix it in with the good you already have. This is the beauty of football.
Good points Rob.
It hardly explains it all, but it’s a good part of the culture/environment mix…for a very good insight on the English game check:
Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger
Englischer Fussball: A German View of Our Beautiful Game by Raphael Honigstein
Barcelona has gotten the ball rolling, but they may not be the one to kick it to the next level.
It might be a good thing for the spread of of possession-orient soccer philosophies in the US when Barcelona is eclipsed by another club. When that happens, it will probably not be by a “ball over the top” team. Ultimately, I see Barcelona being surpassed when they become too orthodox, too “mirandose el ombligo”, too “not invented here”, and another more innovative team implements a more successful permutation of the possession/ total football philosophy. After all, others will have adapted to Barca, and if Barca doesn’t continue to evolve they will start losing more.
At that point, having other successful references for this style will be useful to help the masses, the soccer public beyond the audience of this blog, to see possession soccer being played in the context of cultures, body types, ethnicities, etc. that are more familiar to them. The prejudices of these coaches, pundits, parents, and players may be best overcome when they see other, more sympathetic teams having success with possession.
Very good points regarding pitch and climate.. I may get railed for saying this, but with the fact that more and more games in the U-14 to U-17 are beingt contested on firld turf, I see possesion really becoming a prevalent strategy in the American Game. Inconsistency and overuse of grass fields almost force teams to play a more forward moving. counter style game. My daughters team plays and practices on Turf 95% of the time and the controlled possesion style is absolutely the primary focus of the coaches and players. Has it been perfected? No, but it has certainly taught the kids how to truly work the ball around. On a side note, I shared your youth boys videos with our coaches and players and they all recognized the style and effectiveness immediately
I think my age is constantly being exposed. I’m a product of this broken American soccer system and culture.
My dad did what he could to teach me differently. I grew up watching and hearing about great Croatian players like Suker, Boban, and Simic. I also grew up watching lots of international games in different languages because they never showed Croatia on English speaking networks- besides World Cup of course. I wasn’t the best soccer fan, though. I remember being more interested in kicking the ball in the backyard than watching a game in a different language on the tiny TV we had. My dad would usually go outside with me at halftime and show me “How Suker does it!” Then, I’d spend the second half trying to do his moves.
All of us have had that “AH-HA!” moment when things all of the sudden click and the world made sense. Mine was in 2005 when I traveled to Croatia for the first time to visit family. At the end of my trip, my dad surprised us with tickets to go watch Croatia v. Brazil. This was my first international game outside of the US. It was my first time outside of the US!
I remember walking to the game and the city being having this amazing buzz. There was culture. I’d never seen anything like it before. Everyone was either going to the game or settling in at a pub of cafe to watch it. This was my first time ever being engulfed in a soccer culture. The game was amazing. I got to see the great Ronaldo, an in form Kaka, and a young Robinho. If it wasn’t for Ricardinho stepping up and scoring on a free kick I might have been able to say I saw Roberto Carlos score, but nonetheless, that game was my “AH-HA!” moment.
That was in 2005. I was 18 years old. It took me 18 years to get that feeling! The good thing is… the feeling hasn’t left. My age does limit me in discussions because I can’t refer to things much further back than World Cup 1998. I know that YouTube videos and old news articles can’t replace my 18 years that I spent casually watching games, but I’m making do with what I have.
This blog certainly helps!
Really? Maybe they just read the studies of professional soccer that show the team with greater possession is not statistically more likely to win the soccer game. Too many people take one winning example like Barcelona and try to extrapolate from that. There are also examples of teams and games where the winner had less possession. Note the recent El Classico and Champions League semi-finals. Overall, possession is not a good predictor of the winner!
It does seem a little like a fad when youth coaches talk about possession all the time and yet do nothing to really implement an effective possession strategy. The flip side of this fad here in the USA is to say “kick and run” is bad. Why? It is one tool in the chest that is effective when used properly. Even Barcelona will send a ball over the top and run on it occasionally when the defense gets flat and presses too high.
David, please just confirm that you are serious about this statement before people starting tearing you apart.
It just sounds like too much of an easy target really…just trying to make sure nobody wastes time here.
Thanks
David, are you the same Dave Eggers that wrote this?
“Then again, do we really want – or can we even conceive of – an America where soccer enjoys wide popularity or even respect? If you were soccer, the sport of kings, would you want the adulation of a people who elected Bush and Cheney, not once but twice? You would not. You would rather return to your roots, communist or otherwise, and fight fascism with your feet.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/apr/02/features.sport6
If you are, please go be a bigot somewhere else, would you?
If you are not, you surely sound like a close relative.
Thanks
Are you serious? I am Edders….not Eggers and I have no idea what or where this statement came from. What even does that have to do with my comment? How far did you have to reach to try to undermine my devil’s advocate position on possession soccer? I do think possession is valuable, but I do not blindly buy into like the rest. I question everything…and yes there is research if you care to check that shows the leader in possession is not a good predictor of the match winner. I even question the guy who writes this blog. Has he coached a professional team that has won awards? How about college? How about even a HS national champion? I’m not sure. It looks like only a group of 10 or 11yr olds that haven’t even gone through puberty. I hope I am wrong (and even if I am not it doesn’t really matter to me) because I actually think his views are right on the money!
While possession simply for the sake of possession is not a good plan I don’t think anyone here is saying it is. I think if you take a look currently at professional teams who possess the ball more than their opponents they win more matches than they lose. So while more possession doesn’t equal an automatic win, in the long run the team with more possession usually gets more shots and as a result wins a higher percentage of matches. So, yes, teams with greater possession who are actually using it with a purpose are more likely to win a match in the long run. On the other hand some who may not know the game could be teaching possession just for the sake of it and this is indeed an incomplete picture. Gary has spoken of this and his worries regarding it in the past I believe.
As far as “kick and run” it is usually used to describe hope full balls forward that are only connected on a very low percentage. Barcelona and other good possession teams ball over the top are with a purpose, a target and are completed a good amount of the time. At times they are also necessary to stretch a pressing defense. This isn’t the same as to what most are speaking to when they reference “kick and run”.
Working backward…absolutely agree with your 2nd paragraph…and it shows in the video that the kids can play out of pressure rather than kick and pray. I just question your 2nd sentence because there is research to disprove that. Look it up. Possession does not equal more likely to win.
David is a prime example of the ignorance of the social norm with this country and soccer…
First off, in my opinion, the emphasis of possession soccer in the youth ages is not on winning, it’s on developing an understanding of every aspect of the game. the benefits of this style are much greater (from a developmental standpoint) than that of the “kick and run” game that you speak of. Take our past and current national teams, in my opinion, the reason we have been SO unsuccessful is MAINLY because of our kick and run, win at all cost, bigger faster stronger philosophy.
A lot of our (US Soccer) most technically gifted kids lose ground on the rest of the world because when we send them to high school and college, where the emphasis is on “winning at all cost,” those players suffer. For instance…let’s say your better players are located in the middle of the field. Well in the kick and run game that you speak of David, those players miss the touches that are crucial to their development. The midfield gets skipped 85-90% of the game and we wonder why so and so didn’t make the impact he/she was tipped to post high school/college?…because their development stopped when they left the club team they were on that gave them the quality to progress up until the age of 17-18, then stopped learning and developing through college and ultimately plateau and remain an unfinished product.
On a professional level, would you really rather win in the way Chelsea did against Barca? If you go back and look at the game, they spent 180 mins defending…Congratulations you won a game by “holding on!” Barcelona plays football in a way that is enjoyable even if the result doesn’t go your way (which might I add is rare).
The philosophy also breeds sound minded individuals, yet another upside to the PHILOSOPHY! You must believe in yourself and your teammates and understand your responsibility on and off the ball to really make “possession” play work. In YOUR kick and run philosophy only two or three players are involved out of 11 and that can do damage to a teams chemistry and players individual confidence.
…On another note, this blog is AWESOME!!!
One of the best cotributions I have see here J. Great stuff!!
David, I told you it was coming…you just made it a litle too easy really to dominate this argument…a little bit like when Barca plays Chelsea except this time the good guys put their chances away and it a well deserved blow out…anyway I hope you don’t switch from kick and run to run and hide
Seriously just be honest here and you should be able to learn a bit…a lot of knowledge pouring in…keep it coming guys!!
Seriously…do I have to answer everyone? J you have twisted my words and as for your question…yes…I would rather win the way Chelsea did. I am the first to say Barcelona plays an exceptional strategy with beauty. So did Chelsea! You may not like no hitters in baseball either…neither do I. It is boring with no action, but it is a defensive strategy to win games if that is your strength. Some would call that beautiful.
What I said is that kick and run is one tool in the box that is useful when used properly. It is not BAD. You are right that there is so little emphasis on developing possession play at the youth level (note how few good teams even play it out of the back rather than just punting) it is a problem. If I did not agree I would not bother to post on this site! The old approach to US soccer was to win. Shortsighted…dumb. The new philosophy seems to throw out all of the old…kick and run is BAD. Also DUMB. A good artist will use all his tools to good effect. I think when people actually start thinking critically about it rather than jumping on the bandwagon then will we improve.
David, kick and chase doesn’t have to be taught. It’s what kids do naturally. So basically, parents in the US, who don’t know the difference between possession and kick/chase are paying $2000 for absolutely nothing other than expensive babysitting (and, apparently, the right to bitch and moan when their little ones don’t win).
In short, you can get a possession team to play completely direct (or any style in between) with a couple weeks of training, if that’s what you want to do (and Barca don’t, but why would they: they were a Messi PK and a couple hit posts away from another CL final). You can’t teach a kick and chase team to play possession in anything short of years of intensive training. How many bullets would you rather have in your gun, 1 or 6?
You’re right…kids do it naturally. Why do you think that is? Think about. Kids are not stupid. They know at their level of play it is a good strategy to win especially if they have a strong forward. The key is to teach them more techniques or strategies as they get older to counter that approach or simply to add to it. By the way, if you watch Barcelona play you will see them occasionally kick over the top when they see the defense too high or flat or think there is an opportunity. I think they use all the tools they have.
I can see how those statistics could come about. In a typical mid-table match, the team that has got a lead of a goal or two will concede possession and park the bus for the last half hour or so. But the best teams don’t rely on this as a way to win games. I found this link that shows a pretty positive correlation between the winning teams and an advantage in possession. Not a perfect one, as there is more than one way to win, but as you see the best teams like City and United are dominating possession consistently.
http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/3389/Stages/6531/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2012-2013
Just adding to my last comment – if you’re Stoke or West Ham, for example, your best strategy might be to hope you snatch the first goal on a counter-attack or set piece, and then get your team behind the ball. But if the other team scores first, that plan goes out the window. It might be a good team strategy if you’re a mediocre team trying not to get relegated or trying for a long run in a cup competition, but won’t get you consistent domination like 3 CL titles in 6 years or two Euros and a world cup back to back to back.
On cue- ESPN2 airs a game in Spanish! Haha I’m sure some spectators are livid.
I read this blog because I am interested in soccer developement at the youth level. I come from an American football background but because of my family, soccer has always been my greatest love. I cant explain why I love it so much, I just do. Its all I think about. I think its because I know I would have been a professional player had I ever played as a kid (not bragging, just gotta trust me on this one)
Anyway, I just want to inject a little bit of an outside opinion here.
I believe that possession soccer is the proper basis for developement. I believe that possession soccer is much more appealing to the eye as well. BUT, let us not try to create a new set of rules for this game we love. The goal is to get the ball in the net. There are numerous ways to do it and at this point in time, the possession based approach seems best. But there isnt a person here who believes this will be the last developement of the game. There will be more styles and different tactics being displayed for as long as soccer exists. So what we are looking to accomplish now is to copy what the Catalonians are doing. In other words, we would like to be as good as we can at someone else’s style. How can we be the best in the world (the ultimate goal is to win a world cup) if we will never be better than the spaniards at possession soccer? Shouldnt the challenge be to create a style of our own? Use our advantages? Maybe instead of ripping on American players because they are athletic, we should figure out a way to get these athletic kids to play a different way. We seem to fault the kids for being fast/strong.
I am on board with this blog and the idea behind it. But there are certain areas where 3-4-3 is offside. A disdain for all things not-spanish is ridiculous. Writing off entire leagues because they dont fit your exact ideal is ridiculous. There are players in the MLS and the USWNT system that probably believe what we believe, if not more. Keep in mind, these are all players that are better than WE bloggers are at this game. So lets tone down the disrespect for our fellow citizens (and others).
You want to talk about sports culture… you live in the most athletic country on earth. Nowhere else in the world does a country have 5 major sports which are supported the way we support them here. We do pretty well at the olympics too. I bring this up because Ive read on here how a certain culture is needed to compete in soccer. I actually agree with that, but just because that culture isnt like the one in spain doesnt mean its not a culture that cant support great soccer. I think soccer being an under the radar sport in the US gives it a unique, niche type culture. I love being a part of that.
And last, please dont use the brazilian league as an example of beautiful soccer. It is hardly a possession based league. It is filled with guys losing the ball off useless dribbling and failed attempts to take guys on one on one.
Again, I know what I said doesnt sit well with some on here, but I support the cause. I simply challenge us as a country of thinkers to develop the game further than anyone else in the world already has.
It’s all good Mike.
I hope you stick around here for a very long time.
Because, and I’m being direct now, most of what underpins your opinions (your “logic”) must be re-evaluated.
Hmm, who would’ve thought? Two “Mike’s” on the same blog?
Should’ve seen that one coming. Henceforth I’ll be “NOVA Mike” since I’m a N. Va. guy (and not much of an American Football guy).
thanks NOVA Mike. Ill be “NJ Mike” to make room for more bloggers.
And Ive been becoming less and less of an American football fan over the years. Once soccer becomes your disease, it doesnt leave much room for anything else.
Playing both sports (rare, since they always seem to be at odds with eachother) has given me a really cool perpesctive. American fball instills a certain F*%k you attitude that I believe is so important in high level competition. I know many dont like the chest thumping and jawing that goes along with it, but thats just confidence built up over the weeks and years from busting ass in training. Having a confident/cocky attitude as a player creates personal pressure… personal pressure drives people to work harder to get better, or else the athlete looks like a fool who cant deliver.
A girl on the U17 national team was an all-state kicker for her high school football team. She might agree with the football mentality. Her USWNT coaches might, too. Too many things to be said about this video… just thought I would share so everyone could have a good laugh 🙂
http://youtu.be/D1yBqdjybgw
“And last, please dont use the brazilian league as an example of beautiful soccer. It is hardly a possession based league. It is filled with guys losing the ball off useless dribbling and failed attempts to take guys on one on one. ”
How many Brazilian league games are you watching? Sure there are some teams in the first division that are very small clubs and as a result are out manned don’t always look beautiful. There are also some teams who in certain games will look to play counter attack. However I watch the league(National and State) every single day it is indeed overall a possession based league. The Brazilian style and the style for almost all of the top club teams is moving the ball safely until an attacking opportunity presents itself and if nothing is on play back and recirculate the ball once again looking for space to exploit. Looking at a few games doesn’t really tell the story. You could pick random La Liga games that don’t feature Barca or Bilbao and find play that doesn’t live up to the possession based approach being talked about here. You could watch a few RM matches and think they were the worst possession based team. However overall they are in the top 10 in the world for % of possession. Of course they completely pad the stat against some very weak teams as well.
Well said Mike.
David — to address your point about possession not being a good predictor of a team winning, you are correct, kind of. It really depends on the methodology used. How do you define possession advantage? 51-49%? 60-40%? How are you even defining possession? That’s actually not such a trivial question since there are two generally used systems (# passes or time in possession), plus the issue of dead ball situations. Methodology aside, I think there are a couple of things to keep in mind.
1) Correlating any metric to wins in soccer is dangerous. Due to the low scoring nature of the sport, randomness can greatly impact the final score. An example of randomness is Messi hitting the post. Over the course of the season, that probably evens out, but in one match it has a large effect.
2) Possession % is an aggregate measure. You lose so much information about the game when looking at one single number. Not all possession is equal. Did you know that only 10% of Barcelona’s passes occur in their defensive third while 29% occur in their attacking third? Compare that to Swansea with 33% of passes in their defensive third and a mere 13% of passes in the attacking third. You can read more about Swansea here: http://blog.statdna.com/post/2012/02/21/Much-Ado-About-Swansea.aspx They might dominate possession, but Swansea are level on points with Stoke because not all possession is equal. Aggregating things at the wrong level can cloud the picture. Of course there will be little to no correlation between winning and possession if you aren’t looking at the right things. It’s the same as asking if shots and winning are correlated. The first thing people will complain about is the fact that some shots are better than others!
3) Modelling the game as a Markov Chain reveals that the longer your team holds onto the ball, the more likely they are to score. Conversely, kick and chase is an incredibly low percentage style of scoring. Now imagine playing against a team who hold on to the ball for long spells and there are fewer changes of possession than normal. That means a kick and chase team has fewer opportunities to try their low probability method. If both teams play kick and chase then there are more chances to score. What would possession % tell us about two kick and chase teams playing each other? Not much. Will the kick and chase team win sometimes. Sure.
4) This is all a very long winded way of saying stats are good and can lead to insights but need to be handled with caution. Soccer is a complicated game and simple models can lead to the wrong conclusions. It’s always best to examine and critique them and have discussions about what they mean and what’s going on. If you see something that is a little counter-intuitive like possession not being a good indicator of winning, you have to ask questions as to why?
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Regarding Global Soccer Literacy — there is a severe lack of English language coverage of non-English leagues. Hopefully that will changes soon. Anyone have sources they recommend in Spanish? I find really good stuff hard to find, regardless of language.
Love this post…science is great, but don’t be too heavy handed with it…science leaves to room for creativity..
Soccer stats, don’t you just love them??
Since I just put the case for the England FA and Sir Trevor Brooking, I hope no to be labelled as chauvinist, etc for reminding everyone of the tragic lover affair of the British game with worthless stats.
Read and take your own conclusions:
http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/2502/29/
By the way this was published on WSC, a great English Football institution, so again credit where credit is due
Wow. Sarah…absolutely correct. It is nice to see some educated replies. I have actually studied the subject some and found a statistical significance to possession in the attacking half (did not measure by thirds). Your third point is interesting and fourth is absolutely correct, but leads to bashing on-line like here.
Good discussion. I coach all ages and have a PowerPoint I have put together heralding the possession game. There is no question teaching possession (passing with correct weight to correct foot and receiving efficiently) is critical and needs to be taught at a young age. Total agreement with blog. However, my problem with Barcalona is they do not seem to have a plan B. They get the ball out wide and do not look to get crosses in as this will result in loss of possession. They have small forwards but knock downs and poor clearances lead to chances. Chelsea were very content to allow Barcalona to possess even without 2 central defenders. Man City also had small forwards versus Man U tall defenders but they put crosses in, one resulted in a corner which allowed Kompany to come up and score. I mention all this to say there is more to the game than “just possessing a ball”. Crossing and finishing from distance wins games as well. Both these skills usually result in loss of possession.
Comment about EPL. A little presumptuous to say no possession, top 4 fours consistently have pass completion rates around 85% – 90% on a season.
for some reason I don’t think the point is getting across…
I don’t understand why as a culture Americans want to make EVERYTHING their own…
Look at EVERY other country in the world…their “BEST” players play where?…EUROPE(mainly Spain, England, Italy and Germany). why is that? Because the best leagues in the world are in, Europe…
This doesn’t mean Brazil, Argentina, Ghana, and even the United States are not/cannot be great footballing nations, it just means the main objective is to get their “cream of the crop,” to EUROPE. (THIS BEING FOR THE GREATER GOOD!!!)
from my understanding, the thing that this blog is all about, and the thing that possession style soccer directly helps achieve is developing PROFESSIONALS!!!
Food for thought…if you build your team/club around the philosophy of keeping the ball and being efficient with the ball, EVERY PLAYER in your team will have a strong foundation to build on. The importance of keeping possession of the ball gives responsibility to EVERY player on your team, including the keeper. (this is important for a better transition to the professional game).
How many times do we see a great team with a weak left or right back?…
How many times do we see a great forward with no first touch and no idea how to play with his strike partner?…
those were the kids that got away with just working hard and relying on their athleticism to get them through the ranks. they were probably never told that they are just as important in a build up as a central player, or they were never given the responsibility of thinking about bringing a teammate in for numbers up and more options/opportunities.
In my opinion the reason for a possession approach is to give EVERY PLAYER in the team the chance to be great!…you never know, it could be your left or right back that ends up playing for Barcelona!!!
Winning ugly at a youth level (in my opinion) is not special…creating a foundation of talented individuals that understand the concept of team and can take that with them wherever they choose to go…that is special!
For me, it’s not about formation, it’s not about being faster or stronger, it’s about learning the game in a complete way and being able to use your skill and knowledge at any level you can aspire to.
Got it J and agree.
Also, a bit unrelated, but if anyone ever wants to have discussion on how American Football coaching (I have coached from the youth level to a high level high school, and played in college) methods may be infused into the soccer training world, Id love to. Successful football coaches are often very bright, forward thinkers.There is obviously a lot more to the game than visible to the eye. Ive learned tons about player motivation, time management, practice efficiency, and more that Id like to see if can be applied to soccer.
I have one question for everyone:
Do you believe there should be more of a focus on player retention (keep as many kids playing as possible) or more focus on weeding out the lowest level players so competition is higher? Thanks
Player retention and player selection are important issues, but we should also be considering including players that are not part of the standard pipeline. There are top players who cannot afford to pay the price that Clubs are charging even with scholarships. Just getting to games and practices can be an issue. These kids and young adults are still playing, but they’re in the recreational and community leagues. They are inner city, mostly hispanic players. It’s priced right, very competitive and serious soccer and futsal. The intensity level of the league is way above any recreational leagues you are used to seeing!
The Dutch have some thoughts on this. To develop a true football culture, ALL levels of ability must be valued. They prefer not to weed out the worst players, or the average ones, outright, because they believe that these players will one day become the physio’s, kit-men, locker-room plumbers, front office people and astute fans of the next generation. It’s one thing to say we want to produce the best footballers (which is the obvious goal), but it’s another thing entirely to discard the 90% who will never reach that mark. That 90% is what makes up the lifeblood of the football culture.
“Prejudice. Let’s not pretend it doesn’t exist at the racial, cultural, or national level.”
Exactly the point I have been trying to make. Prejudice exists in all aspects of life. Soccer is no different. The players that get promoted from rec, comp, high school, college, MLS, National are not necessarily the
best. They are usually the ones with determined parents, coaches, board members and favoritism goes a long way. It just so happens that money and the color of your skin are closely related to prejudice as well.
Case in point: Notice the look of disgust on Lalas’ face when he talks about how sick he is of “the whole latin thing”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PUNhAxhpfs.
Now wait a second here. He said they need possession players no matter where they’re from. Not that they couldn’t be Latin. He said they need possession players period. Are you saying they must be Latin? Is there something wrong with him saying they need possession players no matter what their background is? Prejudice isn’t a one way street. Brown people can be prejudice against white people just as it can be the other way around.
the point i think Mike was making is that traditionally the suburban community normally doesn’t feel the game or live for it, its true. Where the latin, african cultures tend to have a different style of play because to them its more than a game. So from their cultures they’ve developed a style, where in England and most suburban america tend to favor “Good Ol’ Fashion” hard work over somebody with some as Gary would put it “FLAVOR”. Now at my club joga sc i got black, white, latin, middle eastern etc and we use hip hop music to relate to the kids and one of our U10 players a white kid recently was dancing with the ball, showing some flavor, was called a jerk by the other coach, we were like keep on dancing and shaking them!
That’s a style that the kids/parents have bought into about Joga, but historically from the suburbs that would be forbidden discouraged. I know have Joga VA mostly suburbs and Joga DC inner city and guess what hip hop flavor, expression through street soccer has brought the club together.
That style is what our club is about and what latin, african cultures thrive off of. So I’m happy my white, black, latin kids all express themselves but how many clubs really allow other cultures in?
WE KNOW US Soccer doesn’t want the game to be defined Latin/African/African American culture because if they did it would have happened alread and they would make millions like the NBA/NCAA/NFL do off of them. Look at France, the success they got by winning the world cup, and then the press saying the team really wasn’t french due to the african and middle east decent. I think US Soccer subconsciously is the same.
Nova Mike and myself have set out to build a culture where we can have kids playing soccer all of the time but is that really happening around the country, or only in pockets? I can drive anywhere in a 5 mile radius in DC and find latin americans playing. So why is that demographic so overlooked???? Because of the style of PLAY that is favored from suburban culture doesn’t favor their style.
Not that I completely disagree with everything you said but there is still a lot of prejudice in the line of thinking that only Latin, black, etc enjoy this style. Is Clint Dempsey black or Hispanic? Soccer in my area is mostly suburban as the inner city kids mostly play basketball. Here basketball is king, period. The motto for all of my teams is Joga Bonito. We celebrate creativity and beautiful play. However I’m a white guy with mostly white suburban players. However in the area we do have several Mexican and Latin coaches. They are some of the most get it forward and go coaches I have ever witnessed. Yet because they are of Latin decent the people in the area automatically think they know soccer. One of the gentlemen I have coached against was given a HS program to take over two years ago. I have seen this guy at U10 play two players on the “18” of his defensive box the entire game while screaming at the rest to get the ball, kick it, etc. He is terrible yet he is given a job to run a program! Now that is some seriously blind prejudice. Turning down qualified coaches to hire someone because they are Latin. The ignorant idea being that he must automatically know the game. The guy has won 3 games in 2 seasons.
I don’t disagree with the idea that much of this style isn’t appreciated in the mainstream of select soccer. My oldest has to deal with this a lot. She is a small midfielder who prefers to play quickly or pick out nicely placed through balls. Many coaches prefer the big fast ball winner who plays it long or gives it away 50% of the time. It is frustrating. What I don’t agree with is picking out Lalas’ statement here as prejudice. As much as I can’t stand the guy’s commentary I don’t see anything wrong with what he said. We should be looking for the best players possible no matter the background. Certain areas of the Latin community will appreciate the correct style more while at the same time others may not. We should be looking at the technical and tactical(insight) abilities of the players not whether they are black, brown or white.
I’ll be honest with you if Latins, African Americans etc take over soccer most players will come from those demographics. NFL and NBA have proved that, MLB in the Carribbean have proved that. US Soccer doesn’t want that, trust me they don’t.
If they do they will have to deal with cultures they really don’t want any part of, for example Lalas comment “I’m tired of this Latin thing” really he wants Latins involved? If i were latin would i want him coaching my son? Nope because he doesn’t want that Latin thing.
I just brought my mainly suburban kids to inner city DC today to ball with the kids there. We are hoping to bring cultures together, but how it is packaged in the US they will not accept a black kid from the hood in DC and how he plays. We know that, and the reason why we are focusing on race is we know that certain cultures gravitate to sports and make it their own and play it a different way. NCAA figured out hey we need brothers to compete in football because they play everyday, they live for it. In the Carribbean they saw the Dominican Republic live for the sport of baseball so where are they looking for talent? For Pujols etc? Let’s be real folks, France showed you, Brazil etc they go to where the game is more than a game
Read this about Brazil and see how the US Soccer Scene is eerily the same over a 100 years later.
http://soccerlens.com/brazil-football/31195/#ixzz18Z34HlnA
“The philosophy which underpins Brazilian football is, as has been demonstrated since football’s genesis in the country, based around exuberance, enjoyment and individual brilliance within the team collective. As Gilberto Freyre wrote in 1959, “The Brazilians play football as if it were a dance…for [they] tend to reduce everything to dance, work and play alike.”
At the time, the Italian journalist Thomaz Mazzoni wrote, “English football, well played, is like a symphonic orchestra; well played, Brazilian football is like an extremely hot jazz band.” The Brazilian philosophy and approach to football was becoming admired across the globe, but even brighter achievements lay on the horizon for football’s samba virtuosos.
However, as the European influence in the country began to fade, there followed a radical democratisation of football, it became the game of the people. Brazil began to shape football in its own social image. Clubs borne out of the working class emerged, Vasco Da Gama, for example, won the national championship with a team full of native black players and members of the white working class.
As a result, the way football was played in Brazil was transformed forever, the English approach was largely replaced with the flamboyant style we all now associate with those who pull on the canary yellow shirt.”
After you read that, what does that sound like, the favelas, the black, latins changed the game, they were kept out so they said you know what you don’t want us we are going to change the game and knock down this obstacle you had in front of us. That’s what I’m doing with Joga, i don’t need or care about US Soccer Fed etc mean nothing to me, I’m going to where the hood is where we need to create a soccer culture and do just like in Brazil whoop their tail and watch the landscape change forever…
The problem is you are using RACE when the fact is it’s actually CLASS that drives what you are talking about. Racism and prejudice aren’t a one way street. The Brazilian kids who usually succeed are from the favellas because they see Soccer as their only way out. It is also the one thing they have that they can do every day to uplift themselves. It is the same thing in America with basketball and the ghettos. However there is an issue in Soccer in the U.S. because most of the competitive seen is driven by money. It pretty much has to be at this point because in most areas there isn’t an infrastructure or love for the game. There aren’t big sponsors to make those types of leagues affordable. There aren’t school teams until older ages etc. It’s unfortunate but something we need to find a way to work through.
My post cut off but continuing…. I use a huge influence from Brazil with my kids and their training. What you are doing with the inner city kids is great and definitely needed. In my area of the country I have tried to take it to these type of areas but like I said they only care about basketball. I wish I could get more low income kids active in the soccer community but their parents would rather see them ride the bench in basketball than try futbol.
I understand, but my point of race or what the original post mentioned in race helps in understanding why certain play the way they do. There’s a way that each culture chooses to express themselves in a game, Brazil is heavily influenced by Black and Latin players, in the US not so much. That has nothing to do with class but of culture. I took my suburban kids to inner city dc and they noticed the rhythm and how music effects the kids from that area.
Like i look at how Harlem Globetrotters and AND 1 influenced Bball culturally.
Here’s a quote from Kareem Abdul Jabaar about Bball:
“the black schoolyard game demanded all the flash, guile, and individual reckless brilliance each man would need in the world facing him.”- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Why do you think MJ played that way, Kobe, Lebron, Culture and race have a lot to do with it, it influences, drives, and creates passion in the game that America currently doesn’t have. Millions of Latin Americans playing in the US but name 1, I mean 1! that represents US Soccer????? NONE, that is a travesty and shows you why the game is where it is now.
The race tends to drive the culture, which drives the style, which in turn influences the coaching. And I’m talking in terms of the masses not one offs like dempsey, eminem lol but really it does in my opinion
Last point look at Germany currently with the Turkish influence of now Ozil and Khedira. Here’s an article about their integration in Germany and how it took YEARS for Turkish players to be recognized in German Soccer.
“Sami Khedira and Mesut Özil, young teammates on soccer powerhouse Real Madrid and key ingredients in Germany’s 2010 World Cup run to the semifinals. Khedira (23) is the German born son of a Tunisian father, while Özil (22) is a third generation Turkish-German who recites the Qur’an before every game. Together, they have arguably done more socially for the Muslim community in Germany than their actual accomplishments on the pitch will ever match.
However, the question needs to be asked whether or not their popularity is a sign of German society relinquishing some if its prejudices or if, to borrow from some commenters on Michael Jordan’s commercial success, it is a function of them being “[German] enough to be embraced”?
http://hpronline.org/world/sami-khedira-and-mesut-ozil-agents-of-social-change-in-germany/
If you read that it makes u realize why Germany decided that the “Turkish Thing” was important to their development as a soccer nation and not the outright blatant prejudice happening in US Soccer today when it comes to Latin American soccer. So when Lalas says he’s tired of the “Latin Thing” he is saying on purpose or not we don’t need Latins to be great at soccer, we dont have to care who they are, accept their culture, or give a crap how they view the game.
So let’s make sure we know that one our Hall of Fame US Soccer players Lalas (absolutely laughable he represents US Soccer) is ok with where we are at, and that’s where we will stay if we don’t wake up…ok i’m done time to down some coronas and chill out
Happy Cinco de Mayo Peeps!
There really is no Class in the US. Every family from $25k to $250k is middle class. Therefore it is about ethnicity. Ethnicity can be different races with the same culture. For example, Mexico ethnically has a mixture of indians, blacks, asians, germans, middle easterns. They all still celebrate and drink Cervezas!
Feliz Cinco de Mayo!
If you think people who earn 25k are in the same class as those who earn $250k you have lost it completely. In most modest economic areas I have been club soccer will cost at least $1200-$2000 a year for a single kid. Good luck with that making 25k a year.
Kephren, great article on social change. It would be nice to see the social change of soccer in the US the way NBA,NFL,MLB have been transformed.
Dave C, I treat parents making $25k and $250K the same. They just have to purchase the uniform. Money does not buy talent and determination. You can still have a dumb rich player or a dumb poor player. I just want players that have the DESIRE to develop, a characteristic that might not exist in the US.
Dave, I don’t disagree with anything he said – it was more the way he said it. In listening to his commentary for a while now (not just that clip) it is obvious that he is not a fan of possession soccer generally (“Set pieces are the key to soccer”), and he equates possession soccer with “the latin style”, as he puts it. No one was talking about player selection prior to that. The discussion was about whether there had been any noticeable change in the U.S. style of play so far under Klinsman. All of a sudden Lalas turned the discussion to “the latin thing, the hispanic thing” before quickly back-tracking to his point about players from anywhere being able to play that way. At least that’s how it looked to me, but maybe I’m just prejudiced against Alexi Lalas. 😉
Fair enough Mike. I’m no fan of Lalas either.
“I’m asking for good players…and Latins have good players but that’s another issue”
The issue is prejudice.
We need black, white, and brown players!!! Did I forget anyone else? That’s about 100% of the population in the US. This English/British dominance is never ending, started with colonialism and just keeps on going. I wish we had Native Americans in the game that would be cool!
Doesn’t it make you just a tad mad that this crap (I’m sorry, direct soccer, long-ball game, kick and rush, or whatever other euphemism you rather like) is still trying to be pushed down the throats of our young players?
http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/2502/29/
After it was debunked on its own birthplace more than 10 years ago as just that, crap perfumed with worthless stats?
http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/2502/29/
When the FA that once endorsed this crap on its own manual, has been running away from it from years now?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OfHYz2FAds
And you thought that Gary was overreacting??
Ah, poor Charles Reep. He was so far ahead of his time he didn’t have anyone to bounce ideas off of and check his logic. You can kind of see how based on the numbers it makes sense to play route 1. Look at those stats! How can you argue with data! However….
I don’t like his definition of what a single attacking move is. According to Reep an attacking move is terminated by any infraction (foul, out of bounds, etc), a shot, or an interception by the defensive team. A penalty is considered a 0 pass move. So if you had put together a 28 string of passes, won a penalty and scored, in Reep’s system that is a possession with 0 completed passes. Also possession ends if the defender had gotten a touch on the ball, but never really gained control, and immediately turns it back over to the attacking team. That doesn’t make sense to me because the defending team never got a chance to transition into their attacking shape. If you think about it from a “phase of play” mentality, the phase doesn’t change at all, so why should it be considered the end of a possession from a stats perspective? I prefer to define a change in possession as a deliberate and controlled move by the opposing team. So if you have a bunch of these little touches/deflections from defenders constantly resetting the pass count, and if they are more likely to occur in the attacking third where defenders are more closely marking their man, then of course you will get stats like 80% of scoring possessions have 3 or fewer passes and 60% of scoring moves start within 35 yards of goal. It’s not that using stats is bad. It’s that using bad stats is bad!
The other problem with Reep is that his logic was incomplete. According to Ken Bray in How To Score (if my memory is right), Reep looked at the stats and saw that the longer you hold on to the ball, the more likely you are to turn it over to the opposition. This, coupled with the starting position of scoring moves being close to goal in his faulty system, led to the invention of route 1 football. Yes, the longer you hold onto the ball, the more likely you are to turn it over. But you are also more likely to score! Reep totally missed that.
I hope I don’t come across as making it sound like all stats are bad. My day job is soccer analytics and I think there are insights to be gained when we proceed with caution. I just urge everyone to be well aware of how the stats are gathered and what they really mean. It’s ok to be critical! That’s how we learn and grow! Reep didn’t have anyone to slap him round the head and say “You missed the plot!”
Thanks for your insight Sarah.
You seem to be a very fair minded person and competent at what you do.
I think what you do for a living might prove to be another good tool for coaches at a high competitive level to analyze the game, but even at that level any quantitative analysis is just a complement to a qualitative read of the game (that just the nature of the sport IMHO.)
Now, at the top senior level we can look at the game from different perspectives:
Wins – the ultimate goal…as far as I know no ultimate tactical formula has been found that guarantees success (wins) no matter all other circumstances (if there was one everyone would be following it…) Throughout soccer history teams have found different ways to win, and they will continue to do so, that is part of the beauty, and magic of the sport. Can it be argued that at the top level possession based soccer tends to lead to more success than other styles of play, and that that trend has only intensified on the last couple of decades? I certainly believe so, and the evidence seems to be very clear if we look at the big picture
Dominating games – Having control of the game, playing it on your own terms and creating more goal scoring chances than the opposition (giving yourself a better chance to win the game.) Again the last decade has made it clear how hard (if not impossible) it is to teams that aren’t good enough at keeping possession of the ball (meaning not giving it away cheaply) to dominate games…and the higher the level, the more so. Here one can argue that more than the quantity of possession, is the quality of possession that really matters (now we are getting in some of the good stuff, but in simple terms if you are not precise with your game, and you trust too much on random plays, you can hardly be said to have control of the game, can you?)
Enjoyment /Aesthetic – Completely subjective area, but a very important one. Sport is above all an emotional experience. If it was all about dry numbers (even if those are wins and losses) how many people would care (or really, why would people spend so much time writing and reading soccer blogs for example.) This is where culture plays a major role. What is accepted and appreciated for some, is deemed rubbish for others. And this also changes with time thankfully…
Now this blog is mainly about player development, isn’t it?
From a player development perspective, for all the reasons that other contributors have put forward here (just look at the former answers on this topic by J or Dave C, or of course the initial posting by Gary here and his insights all over the blog) it is quite accepted at top level soccer organization (Club, FA’s, some of course being more truly invested and competent than others, hence different results) all over the word that you need to have a possession based philosophy to successful develop players (and this is true for any level of play I would very strongly argue.)
Our main beef here is that US soccer (for several reasons…), and in spite of some progress, is still lagging way behind where it should/could be when compared to the most “advanced” soccer nations / clubs…but we hope we can make a small difference here…and most importantly on the soccer fields all across this great country.
Are you single Sarah? I want to marry you! I just ran into a real life example of this with a guest player who outclassed the rest and won more balls and had more touches than everyone else. He also was the only one to score and provided the best chances to score. The coach at the end just said he lost the ball more than anyone. YES…true…that is because he had the ball more than anyone in the first place. He and Reep missed the plot.
If we’re getting deep into it, isn’t “Possession” soccer a misnomer? Another term for it is Positional soccer. “Possession” is never the objective. In fact, the goal of “possession soccer” is to re-gain it after you lose it (with intensity and high up the pitch) and keep the ball until you create that attempt on goal. No more, no less—in a pure sense. Obviously, we can use it to change tempo or catch our breath, and do other things if needed, but for the most part it’s an attacking philosophy.
Percentage of possession can be distorted greatly by how the other team is playing. If the other team is not interested in chasing then, the possession for the other team rises considerably.
Nuno, I think you are completely missing the point of what Sarah is saying. This happens a lot to us statistics types. First the chain of logic, if i(f if) you believe Reeps and others original analysis that Route 1 soccer is the best way to win Pro games, then that has to trickle down to the youth level. You develop big athletic 9’s and promote them, you get ball winning midfielders, and man mountain defenders even if they can’t control or pass to save their lives-in other words, Stoke. Stoke has absolutely no use for an Iniesta. Why would they develop one?
What Rudd is pointing out is (1) the original statistical analysis favoring Rt. 1 soccer was wrong (she is being polite, but the errors are really bad.) (2) She makes the subtle point that the type of possession really matters, like possession in the final third vs defensive third. My guess is that these subtler details of possession are the ones that Gary has trouble getting across on the blog, likely because they have to be seen. But Sarah and fellow researchers are starting to get at them via advanced statistics.
Sarah’s insights likely will matter, because the type of possession you want is going to affect how you develop players. For instance the difference between Arsenal style possession and Barcelona style are large as seen by the difficulties that Fabregas has had integrating- his training from 16 on valued a different type of possession. Sarah’s work can hopefully help us decide the +/- of different styles of possession.
As I said, my view is that stats are a complementary tool to a qualitative reading of the game…clearly Reep’s analysis were technically wrong, but it is the principle that matters…the biggest “sin” was that the stats tail was wagging the soccer dog…do you really need a lot of stats to know how important is to have players that can pass and receive the ball, beat defenders 1v1 and can make good decisions?…and do you really need a lot of stats to recognize and identify those kind of players and to organize them on a team? …but again this is just my individual opinion…even if I do have a feel that you were to ask Cruyff, Guardiola or Xavi Hernandez you might get a similar answer…but I’m not sure, maybe Gary has some good insight here
Context is King!
And the quality of the context given is a function of subject-matter expertise.
When people’s arguments heavily hinge on the “numbers”, it’s usually a strong indicator of lack of subject-matter expertise.
In many fields, stats has led to surprising, counterintuitive findings that practitioners did not expect and really resisted. Baseball obviously, but also economics, medicine, pointy football .. I can go on and on. I expect the incredible amount of detailed soccer data and intelligent analysts will point out some really important facets of soccer beyond the obvious ones you listed that have been missed by practitioners. Soccer is a more difficult statistical nut to crack than most other sports, but there is also an incredible amount of data.
Good, as I said for now I see stats as having an important complementary role to a qualitative analysis…when the game changing statistics breakthroughs start to come we will be here….as of now, anyone what is the best example that you can give us?
http://www.ussoccer.com/media-library/Videos/US-Men/2012/04/120420-Studio-90.aspx
interesting video thought I might share!
Exclusive!!! Inside video US Soccer Technical Department Workshop: “How US Soccer is going to take over the world”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YawagQ6lLrA
Wow!! Never seen before urgency. Serious stuff going on here:
“We have to get out of our arses and stop just talking about it!!
I agree! Is action that counts, not words and we need action now!!”
Now, this thing with the USMNT team…seriously, on this video (see Rosie’s link) about this big meeting to take action, did you hear a single soccer idea of how US wants to go about to play and develop players?? A single one?? So far, the most excited I have seen Jurgen is when he talks of the importance of eating organic food…I guess “this calls for immediate discussion”
LOL!! Unbelievable funny, is it?
You see, I told you I do love a lot of British culture!!
Just not a big fan of route 1 football…
Notice to all US serious aspiring young soccer players
No organic, no Europe!!
Soccer ideas might not be hold against you (I’ll get back to you on this one once I figure out mine. If only Lowe would return my calls)
Love,
Jurgen
Do I like Organic?
Yep, I just happen to like good soccer ideas a bit more
…and I like to think the US Full National Team Head Coach would like them even more
Jurgen Klinsmann at the 2012 US Youth Soccer Workshop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V88kRoQp_1o
F*@k me!
Anyone feeling hopeful?
I see mental speed as a major issue. When I watch an MLS game, I see players constantly taking about two or three seconds two long to decide what they’re going to do with the ball. In those extra seconds, passing lanes close, players drift offside, and opportunities disappear. I see this as a symptom of the lack of value place of fundamental ball skills. If we were a soccer culture that highly valued possession play, then being able to quickly decide what to do with the ball would be a highly valued and therefore highly developed skill in a professional player.
Another symptom: blindness to the important qualities. I went with a friend who coached his son’s team to see them play in a weekend tournament. I think they were U13 or something like that. When we got to the field, a girls’ game was wrapping up. As we were standing there watching, this little girl playing right back brilliantly anticipated a pass, dribbled the intended recipient, and took off down the sideline, head up, looking where to send the ball. I turned to my friend and said that I liked now that number 44 played (since that was her number). He replied, “but she’s so small.” If a guy who’s been a soccer fan since the NASL days can’t recognize a good play when it happens right in front of his face, what’s that say about the state of soccer knowledge in this country.
Carlos, what you say is true but it’s a lot of little things that add up: slow decision making, soccer IQ is lacking, technical ability isn’t top class, ect. When you add all these things up it makes for a really deficient player(s).
Thinking is the most important technical skill in soccer.
Posssession soccer is dead at our club, although you could say it was never alive to begin with. Typical set-up with the Scottish exec director and more than half the staff coaches English/Scottish. Kick and run, with heavy emphasis on praise for the kid who has a killer shot. My boy tries to play the right way…playing with head up and looking to keep the ball by trying to spread it around the field. The coach sends us an email the other night telling me how well he is doing. The coach goes on about how advanced his technical ability is for his age group….makes great passes, almost always the correct decision BUT….he wants my son to shoot more even from long distance. He says the Club wants to develop goal scorers mentality. My reply was that goals are great but why can’t we also develop a creative midfielder mentality as well. Response was that goals are more important. We are now looking for a new club for next season but my concern is that the 2 other in the area have the same set-up and mentality.
Bono,
I’m thinking of starting a support group for people like us, and our children. We can call it the “What might have been had a decent coach been anywhere within 200 miles club”.
The scary thing about this post is that, for a moment, I thought you were talking about one of my kids’ clubs, and specifically about one of my kids’ teams. They I remembered why I visit this site.
And by the way, here in Southern California, there is plenty of bad Latin soccer, too. If it were all good, I wouldn’t be here.
Feel free to ignore my advice, but when I go to look at a youth club I just look to see if the goalie punts it all the time or if they play it out of the back. That will give you the answer I think. Every coach says “they play possession and teach them to play out of the back.” You can pretty quickly tell which ones do.
Since we are discussing youth soccer I have a question related to what I am going through now. Youth soccer changes quickly from say U13 to U16. In that 3 years it seems kids are on the path to college or national team etc. or not and that path seems limited. In my state, some of the best travel club players transition to academies and they play in their own league. There is a choice of less than a handful of independent academies that charge absurd prices or one MLS related academy that can only be entered by invite which usually comes after paying absurd prices for their training camps to get noticed by entirely English coaches. What if those 3 or 4 options do not work? What do people do? How many kids fall through the cracks at this point?
Well put Alberto (and Bono and M)
It’s a war of soccer ideas and competences…keep on the fight
Nuno and others, it is a fight, and fighting ignorance is tedious. On the one side, the Kleibans are demonstrating how you can show leadership in truly developing players, even in a pay-to-play, win-oriented, helicopter parenting environment. But on the other hand, if as a parent you are willing to support such people, it is difficult to find them. If there were a way of knowing who are the local coaches are who try to develop players, expect professionalism equally from all players and parents, and at least try to implement the right principles, it would be easy to decide. I have a kid in a well-known academy club now, and I would have no problem leaving to go to a “no-name” club if they offered these things. If my kid were content playing kickball in a prestigious academy, on the other hand, I wouldn’t worry about it. But he is the one who is more frustrated than I am: it’s not about playing time, it’s about mind-numbingly stupid play and the frustration felt by a player who “sees” more but cannot do anything about it.
Lately, there seem to be many pretenders out there who are offering “possession” soccer and “development”. But in my experience, these situations turn out to be nothing more than just kickball (Latin kickball, Anglo kickball,…) out of a 4-3-3 formation.
What the fuck?
WTF is right. Your kid’s “vision” and the accompanying frustration – exactly the same stuff my kid is going through. And when he says to me, “I want to find a team that plays like I do”, and I can’t find one….My son has to play each game while “SHOOT, SHOOT!!!!” is being screamed at him from the sidelines. It’s crazy. Meanwhile, there are only a handful of folks who recognize what he truly brings to the team – and they wouldn’t be allowed to coach, no way. Here’s another youth soccer injustice – the people who actually know the game and could do a decent job at coaching will never volunteer to do it and I don’t blame them. Because the first time they got out there and tried to condition the kids and teach them properly, the ignorant parents would immediately call for their removal because suddenly, their child might have to behave and exhibit some discipline. Wow, lots of parallels between the state of youth soccer and the state of youth in general.
I’ve kinda given up on ever correcting parents’ behavior. Ultimately, the players need to focus on what they’re doing and ignore what’s going on around them. At youth level it’s parents shouting instructions, at the senior level it’s opposing fans chanting about your wife/mother/sister’s, um, “apetites”.
By age 10 most kids have surpassed their parents’ abilities and knowledge of the game. So why listen to them on this regard. Not true for parents who have played the game, but those hopefully know better than to harangue their kids during a match.
I want to tell them, “Lady, your daughter isn’t seeing or doing what she is supposed to because she doesn’t know it yet. If she did, it’d be done.” And that’s my job as the coach. But at certain ages, their game is going to be incomplete or else they’d be at La Masia.
My experience is, if you have a clear philosophy and you are able to articulate it to the parents and follow it up with deliver on the field (team performance and player development) the parents will tend to respond pretty well and actually be a staunch allied. In the end they just want the best for their kids, you if can convince them that you have the best product and you can sell it (called education here) most of them will support you.
Now, all of this is all dandy, but is does require a clear set of ideas of what you want to accomplish, competence to execute it, constant communication, and finally but not least a big dose of patience and hard work.
Because really if you want immediate, easy, no frills attached results maybe junk food soccer is what you need.
Is it an easy, guaranteed, solution with all groups? Not really, like everything else a lot depend of that starting point (former soccer background, level, age, education of players and parents) and at times bad habits might just reveal themselves too hard to be broken. Frustrating indeed, but you move on, conscious clear that you have tried to live and die by your principles.
To clarify the stuff requiring patience, time and investment would be a clear possession soccer philosophy, junk food soccer would be any variation of kick and rush, direct soccer.
It’s a market efficiency problem. If consumers could easily identify who offers what in some reliable way, the market would “clear”, and every player could get closer to the kind of environment he or she wants. But because this market is so opaque, it is “caveat emptor”.
Bingo!
The beauty of pay to play… power & control to walk way but also the onus to maneuver market
Ideally for top levels will not be pay to play, and clubs will be on the business of identifying and developing the best talent they can secure, market at work of a different nature
For lower levels, pay to play will last… mechanism to “easily identify who offers what in some reliable way” at this level?
Let me know when you find one
…education is our best hope…because crap will probably continue to be neatly packaged, and the more expensive the crap the neater the package
Exactly. And when a parent tries to go all in for their kid and find someone, anywhere, to help them, that’s when you realize how many phonies are out there. There is not even a standard way to evaluate these clubs, academies, schools, etc etc. They call themselves by so many names, and they are ruthless in their marketing. All the while, that precious window of time when the player is truly developed is closing. Thanks mainly to this blog, I have learned what to look for in a coach and our summer vacation will be spent “scouting” for a coach/program. I hope other parents will do the same. The establishment needs to realize that no matter how hard they have tried to hide it from us, there is an alternative and we need to start choosing the alternative. If they are going to treat us like consumers, then we need to start driving this market. Wish us luck!!!!
Alberto, “ignorance” what a key word…to defeat that we need education: coaches, parents, players, soccer fans…but of course education based on the right ideas and principles, if we are “educating” from the Charles Hughes school of soccer we are only going down, down, down…when we have a good significant mass of educated soccer agents we’ll be in business…we are trying our bit here…you seem a pretty savvy soccer guy, I bet you can “smell” a proper good coach for your son from a “bad” coach…his philosophy, how he practices, how his teams play, how his players develop, the cream always come to the top…
Without revealing any details that might not be on your best interest, where are you broadly located and what is your kid age group?
California, boys 13/14.
I’m located in the Midwest so not too familiar with California details, but disappointing that you still feel so hopeless on what is supposed to be US soccer youth hotbed
The need for a proper education for coaches cannot be understated. Defining a proper education is another issue of significance with the over-riding tendency of US Soccer to follow from British sensibilities. While the written curriculum has a number of positives, the rank and file “teachers” for the classes leaves much to be desired. These are the very coaches that win via overly physical kick and rush football and won’t change their tune when passing on their “wisdom” to the next generation of coaches. Somehow US Soccer needs to work to better define fit teachers so that the antiquated soccer does not get passed down to yet another generation.
A second issue that impacts our ability to become better educated as a soccer nation is English language broadcasts. Rather than produce an intellectually stimulating and educational experience that explains what is going on, the USA simply copies the English model for broadcasting. This model uses two announcers, one play-by-play and a “color” guy who is usually a slightly opinioned ex-player. Both announcers rarely understand or provide any finer points of the game, and often know next to nothing about tactics or the modern rules of the game. They both extol the typical English view of the game where spirit and “bottle” mean everything and skill and intelligence are viewed with suspicion. Viscous tackles and violence are tolerated, but diving is a sin worthy of the death penalty. Teams are lauded for being hard to play against (i.e., Stoke), and attacked for too much style (Arsenal). Spanish, Italians, Brazilians, and especially Argentines are viewed with suspicion and generally un-English qualities. The entire broadcast simply supports every single characteristic this blog has spoken out against. The EPL is designed to be broadcast to the English masses, who crave their generous helping of blood, thunder and guts.
If the USA brought their sports broadcasting A-game it could actually help. Here is a nice discussion with suggestions galore for improving matters,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX5hkcMcK2o
Better broadcasts are not the answer, but they are part of the answer. It is how most of the parents and young players learn something about the game. If they think the EPL is good, our problems are worse.
Some very good points Bill. Especially regarding the teaching system of USSF. We have started to head more in the right direction as far as recommended curriculum. However when most of the higher licensed coaches have never did things this way and don’t believe it how can we expect it to be more than a document?
Good stuff BillR. It’s difficult to re-educate teachers and coaches. First they have to realize and accept that re-education is necessary, basically admit they are wrong. It’s much easier to start with new, young coaches that are eager to learn new teaching methods.
“The relationship between possession and shots”
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/05/04/the-relationship-between-possession-and-shots/
“…the more possession you have, the more shots on goal you’re likely to attempt”
What do we say now?
Who can argue with numbers?
Oh, the dots, the colors, ecstasy…
“In general, more possession will mean more shots – but it’s not always the case.”
Say what??
Super interesting, Spurs more efficient than Bilbao..Arry schooling Bielsa!
Wink, wink
Numbers don’t lie
“What this group does not understand is that “possession” has been an emphasis of every traditional soccer power (except England and to a notable degree Germany) forever.”
I don’t think that is a fair statement to Germany. I consider them very much a possession team, albiet without quite the flair of some more Latin sides. A very good friend and teammate of mine (45 years old) told me that growing up in Germany giving the ball away was a cardinal sin. Germany is one of the few teams that will be down 2-1 with 5 minutes left and the goalkeeper will be rolling the ball out to the left back. I always felt Bayern had the best chance against the two Spanish powerhouses as they don’t immediately give the ball back to the other team. That is certainly my impression of Germany over the years.
If were talking purely on a developmental basis, possession football is always the way to go. Im a young coach struggling with how my philosophies contradict those of the clubs. More possession equates to not just more touches but more importantly it provides more quality touches to more players. What I mean by “quality” touches is that it wasn’t the result of a 50/50 ball or deflected pass – its the result of a player receiving the ball bc that player was the best available option to keep the ball. A quality touch isn’t just the result of a physical reaction to the ball, it is also the result of a mental understanding between several players as to why that was the best option.
When possession is played properly it affords players more space and time with the ball. It provides a level of comfort for players who otherwise are bombarded with the chaos of screaming parents and unfortunately coaches. The time and space gives players comfort in their technical abilities: enough concentration to control that tough pass, the confidence to step in and play that slicing through ball with enough pace, the calm needed for the finish. Repetition is not the answer most think it is – repetition with POSITIVE results IS. Possession provides the greatest opportunity for positive results. Too much focus on results and competition too early in my opinion might be the biggest hindrance to the development at the youth age. That and inadequate coaching are 1a and 1b in the United States. I don’t claim to be a coach that has all the answers, I’m 24 I know I have a lot left to learn, but I do recognize the problems that exist and do my best not to perpetuate them.
From a strictly competitive standpoint, possession is also the answer for me. As mentioned before, the general principle of possession in my opinion are to move the ball to an area or player who has enough space, and therefore time, to at the very LEAST maintain the ball. The added time gives the player a chance to not only look at the picture but also process that information to make intelligent decisions.
Possession also heavily relies upon numbers and the shape of those players. Because the emphasis is to give the ball to space, a defender must react to close that space. That defender will be leaving another player who can then join and play 2v1. Yes there is the obvious benefit of it being easier to keep the ball 2v1 or say 5v4, there’s also the less talked about benefit of when the ball IS LOST there is an extra defender in the area to help win it back quickly. The best possession teams (barca, Spain, brazil) on average only take about 3-5 seconds to win the ball back. As an opponent it’s tough to create chances when there’s no rhythm to your play, and you don’t have that time to make intelligent decisions.
Football is a beautiful games. It’s not nfl with breaks to call in a designed play, or basketball where you have a few designed offenses with a couple options each. Players must be free-thinking, intelligent decision-makers. It’s a chess match, it really is. A good defensive shape is hard to break. Possession is the piece or the tool to adjust that defensive fortress. Possession isn’t just keeping the ball. It’s keeping the ball enough and in the right places to allow for the time to make the correct decisions. You move the ball constantly and force the defense to adjust, and have the time and patience to observe how they adjust their shape. But more times than not no squad is disciplined enough to retain perfect shape for an entire match. Possession play optimizes the chance that you’ll have the ball and the patience/calm to execute the sequence when the breakdown does occur.
Along the same lines, having a majority of the possession makes the opposition less sharp. It can be like a child’s mobile putting them to sleep metaphorically. The game is only fun when your te has the ball; the joy is the ball. Most teams will abandon tactical diligence immediately over an anxious desire for the ball. Players and teams at any level and of any ability want the ball. Keep it from them long enough and you’ve taken control. Once they are reacting to you, if you execute properly you will end up with possession in a dangerous area. Again the space and time is there for the best chance to pick out that lethal ball or to real cool and calm slide the ball home.
Even when Barcelona loses you walk away knowing their opponent was far inferior. If you don’t get that feeling you’re just not watching. Yea sometimes they do lose even with great possession, but it’s not machine… There is always chance involved. It comes down to taking chances. Possession with purpose WILL guarantee you more quality chances a great percentage of the time, but nothing can guarantee a player finishes those chances.
I know this debate isn’t strictly about Chelsea beating Barcelona, but using that as an argument against possession football is laughable. That day Chelsea finished 2 out of 2 chances (and would the second chance have even happened on most days??). Barca did not finish on any of it’s 5 or 6 chances. But if that game was to be replayed 100 times would anyone put money on Chelsea finishing all of their chances for a majority of the games AND Barcelona does not finish any?!? If so give me a call I’d love to steal your money.
Can American soccer be saved?
Let’s hope this is not an “Impossible job”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZwOxMxa9I4
I think another interesting point to prove that possession is not a fad and can be played in the US is that the other more popular team sports of basketball and football seem to be going the way of possession based attacking. Granted the implementation is different from sport to sport, but the general principal remains the same. In football you have teams like the Packers, Patriots, and Giants who have changed the game to a passing, possession based style of attack that philosophically provides the team with more “plays” or touches because of the emphasis on maintaining the ball with high percentage, low risk, high reward sequences that target the player in space. It’s not a direct similarity as the games are played with different rules and goals in mind, but philosophically are very similar.
As for basketball, notice how recently there was a trend of far less “talented” players, non-traditional power countries made the US team look silly. The collection of the best pure athletes and talent in the world were played off the court by countries with far inferior talent and athleticism. They possessed the ball, limited turnovers, and improved the number and quality of their shots. Not surprisingly some of the possession style countries are Argentina, Spain, and Turkey. Familiar?? Also have a look at how the San Antonio has been playing in the NBA lately.
It seems to me that sports in general are going the way of possession. Probably because it is the most attractive and effective way of playing regardless of the sport.
Yeah, too bad you don’t coach in Southern California, kid.
Possession soccer is the right way to play, because it is the smart way to play. Possession soccer isn’t only about keeping the ball, because you are more likely to score with the ball. It’s about keeping the ball to create opportunities rather than force bad ideas. Possession is a risk versus reward approach, and when done right, it’s done at such an amazing pace, that it’s hard to comprehend how an individual, let alone a team of individuals, could possibly process & react at such speed. Thats where Barcelona has done so well, and the us has done so badly. They develop. They don’t do agility ladders & wind sprints. Their results are measured in players, & not scores. They don’t allow the ends to justify the means.
And yes, in la liga & the EPL results are measured statistically. Wins are what get you silver wear. But with kids, I’d much rather have a group who plays the beautiful game, the right way, rather than a trophy. And the fact that American teams are competing with our counterparts in Europe shows that some people are doing it right.
And I’m nit saying that winning isn’t important in youth soccer, I’m simply saying development shouldn’t take a back seat to it.
Sara — Your posts are excellent! Please keep posting.
“Mourinho continues to give emphasis to possession”
http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/Actualidad_Primer_Equipo_en/1330112131253/noticia/Entrenamiento/Mourinho_continues_to_give_emphasis_to_possession.htm
Did anyone go see Real Madrid train? Unbelieveable! Mourinho is something else.