In case you don’t follow us on Twitter or Facebook, we were in St. Louis, Ft. Lauderdale, and Indianapolis last week for the MAC Hermann award, MLS combine, and MLS superdraft, respectively.
The most worthwhile thing to mention from the combine and draft is the comportment of Chivas USA.
I think it’s safe to assume that most who follow MLS were already aware that something is very different with the club now. Ever since that first press conference that new owner Vergara gave, supporters and American writers seemed put off.
Not shocking, as anything or anyone that’s not “like them” is hated and attacked.
What do I mean?
Well for one, Vergara essentially said his intentions were to cater to the Mexican player, community, and style.
Apparently that’s wrong. The American supporter, the primary demographic MLS targets, is the ‘white’ suburban middle to upper middle class who view soccer with a recreational mentality. How dare all this Mexican stuff dirty our white picket fences! “Chivas USA is a disgrace”, they say.
Of course these supporters won’t admit to any sort of prejudice. On the contrary, they’ll say Vergara and company are the ones with this problem.
They’ll point to their support of all these Latino players in the league as evidence of there lack of racial prejudice. Yeah well, so long as the mix -or balance- of races or heritage is a “good one”, I suppose there’s no problem. ‘Good one’ of course judged by their collective tolerance and their thoughts of what’s right and wrong.
So what happens if one builds a team around Mexican Americans? And aspires to target that demographic? One which, by the way, likely has the greatest numbers of passionate footballing fans and players in the country. One which the league, and the entire soccer ecosystem in the states, is not designed for.
Forget the racial, there’s something more fundamental and important
First, the straightforwardness of Vergara’s positions, then the roster moves, then not sitting with all the rec coaches at the combine, then Chelis straight up declaring who his pick will be at this ‘only in America‘ draft.
This brand spanking new Chivas USA is a great example of how being different is attacked. It’s a great example of how the scared mediocre want everyone to be just like them. To talk like them, to believe like them, to support like them, to behave like them … to pretty much be like them!
How dare anyone color outside their lines. How dare anyone not respect the boundaries they set forth!
Because that’s what this is about.
Vergara and his crew are different. They are not “from here”. They bring a different culture, and a different mindset. They have a different way of doing business.
And how the American soccer community has received them is indicative of the intolerance that exists here. It makes clear who the overwhelmimg voice in our country is. It is a voice with tremendous cultural – not the same as racial – prejudice.
Luckily, Vergara has something more important.
WTF? You mean there are MLS clubs that cater to whites? That’s f’ing news to me! Houston, Dallas, etc. are all hispanic targeting clubs. From a business standpoint, there’s nothing wrong with that.
After all, it’s ‘supposed’ to be a free market! While I respect vergara’s boldness and candor, I don’t know how smart a statement that is.
Maybe I’m not following the same blogs/media outlets…but I haven’t heard of any ‘backlash’.
Yes, I would agree that hispanics in general are more passionate about the game. And I want to emphasize “in general.”
But dismissing the caucasian (and any other ethnicity) that are also passionate is a huge mistake.
With the number of hispanic retreads and 2nd tier players in the league…is this even relevant?
Chivas in Mexico has a tradition of only signing players from Mexico. Monterrey, and every other team has Argentines, Columbians, etc. Truth is, we as sports fans do not care where players are from. Look at baseball… do we care that so many players come from the Dominican, Venezuela, Cuba, Puerto Rico, etc.? We care about winning. So, now Chivas comes to USA and tries to claim they want to cater to this style, etc.? BS Gary. I think they just want to stay with tradition. Let us not kid ourselves. If a white boy can play, but cannot speak spanish, will they take him? Maybe, maybe not? Can he score goals like Messi? Then they will think about it. But, if he is only slightly above par to the Mexicans, NO, they will not take him. Whether they are doing their own Affirmative Action thing, or trying to level the playing field … “even the score” or whatever .. it is making decisions and judging by race, and NOT by the “content of ones character” ie, his ability. That is racism. Mexicans can be as racist as anyone else in the world. My boy, born in Mexico, has my name …. some day he will prove to some Mexican American boy that is much darker, “I am more Mexican than you because I was BORN in Mexico! Your were born in Stockton, CA”
If he used his mom´s name, however, he would get the benefit of the doubt by Mexican coaches even if they never met his mother. He will be bi-lingual, too. However, some guy on the sideline looking at names on a list of prospects, and judging a guy by his skin color … is NOT seeing the whole picture. Chivas USA, just like the USA national team, should get the brightest, talented, best possible players and ignore the skin color, country of origin, and name. Period.
Anything else is foolishness.
Zoff
I fail to see how Chivas and the team in Russia are any different. Discrimination is Discrimination no matter the cause or reason!
A Zenit St Petersburg supporters’ group has called for non-white and gay players to be excluded from the team. The Russian champions’ largest fans’ group, Landscrona, said in an open-letter that black players are “forced down Zenit’s throat”.
They added that gay players are “unworthy of our great city”.
Black players in Russia have had bananas thrown at them and been greeted with monkey chants. Zenit’s director said all players are welcome on the team, but until this summer they were the only top Russian club to never have a black player. Maybe it had something to do
Hi Tim,
First, thank you for pointing out the Zenit fan supporter racist comments.
Secondly, I think it is very dangerous to “label” Chivas into this same category.
Regards,
Larry
So in a European country that has their own culture and club wanting only white players to represent their club as opposed to black or gay players is deemed racist where this Mexican Chivas USA is being “Edgy?” GTFO.
It’s called business and ultimately ENTERTAINMENT and I have no problem with either in this PC world. This Chivas guy wants to cater to Mexicans, fine. Great, good luck. Same with the Zenit St. Petersburg.
Gary thank you! I have already have some debates with others about this.
Sorry Tim,
this is nothing like Zenit, they are trying to bring a feel, culture to a club not outright declare others are inferior. It’s important to appreciate that cultures do things differently and to be okay acknowledging that. Chivas is acknowledging that they want to relate to Mexican culture and ultimately US Soccer/MLS is scared of Latin America and what that could mean to them in the long run if that culture was the predominant culture in American soccer. And I mean from top to bottom…
Its so scary for US Soccer, and that’s why the whole culture of the US System has not culturally related to players from this demographic. How in the world there is not “ONE” Latin Player to represent US Soccer??? A player that everyone hispanic, black, white, etc. see as a player to represent US Soccer. I find it absolutely amazing.
I’m black and I see it from an different angle, like if i look at basketball we all know about 60 years ago no one wanted players from the black kids from the inner city who listened to “hip hop and wore baggy pants” representing their colleges or NBA Brands. But black culture took the game made it in their own image and proved themselves to become the predominant culture in basketball. To the point now that all colleges, teams, NBA Brands make sure they can relate to that culture, and know its their cash cow. Imagine No lebron, Kevin Durant, Kobe, Carmelo etc what would the level, of US Bball be?
(Look at the MLS to give you a clue)
Now let’s flip that and look at the substandard levels US Soccer/MLS operates in. We are at that point, where we have bypassed the Latino culture, said pretty much well you can play in the league, but the style/culture of the league is not representative of that demographic, and now we have Chivas who is letting everyone know and it pisses ppl off. Its not about race as so much as it is about culture, if a culture sees soccer as its pastime they are more than likely to value it more, but US Soccer sees them only as a group to market to and make money off of (Mexican National Team Games in Dallas, LA Etc) not represent the culture, style, and ultimately the identity of US Soccer.
So please don’t talk about marketing ploys or commericials that MLS may create to get more Latin fan support, that doesn’t represent a culture I’m talking about where when ppl experience a club they see the style and identity of a club the first time they see it. Now if you are a player who is not mexican american but fit their style trust me they will not turn him away, but the player must fit their style of play to represent them.
Quit relating all things to soccer in the USA to black players aka taking over a game. YOu keep thinking as if black players haven’t ever played this game like a regular black american that thinks because they dominant hoops the same thing will happen in soccer. Brasil and Africa have been playing for over a 100+ years my African American friend.
The greatest men’s National Soccer team of ALL TIME, Spains, has NO BLACK PLAYERS ON THE TEAM.
Barca bought that African superstar from Arsenal and he is a TOTAL BUST because he has no game or brains to play at that level.
The English EPL caters specifically to SELL and show games to their African colonies in Africa is the reason why the English league is SOOOOO over rated because it’s filled with donkeys.
Ha Troy,
you totally missed the point so let me enlighten you, the point is when a culture takes a game makes it an everyday part of their life you get what you have with bball to african americans, and soccer to the Latin American population here in the US. If you see Spain soccer is the predominant, everyday played on the beached/streets, talked about in the barbershop, national debated game that drives their culture. It helps define what kind of players they want the style of play, and ultimately helps lead to how they want their soccer to be expressed.
So in the USA, Troy what group represents that when it comes to soccer? Lets see if you even have a clue.
Because currently that group is not the driving force of US Soccer, because if they were it would look much different and be expressed in a totally different way then it is now. In fact they, US Soccer are terrified for that to happen. It represents change, meaning they wouldn’t be running the game anymore and that scares the crap out of them.
Now go on drink some more of your “Hater-Ade” and have a nice day 🙂
That is a great question kephern. Who is “the driving force of US Soccer”?
Soccer is the largest youth sport in the US hands down. It is color blind. The problem that I see for US Soccer and the development of lower level professional teams to provide that professional academy environment we desire is national and team pride. Those mexican-americans are not wearing US Soccer jerseys or t-shirts, nor are they rooting for the US against Mexico. The brazilian americans, argentinian americans etc. do not wear the US jersey, nor do the wear the Houston Dynamo jersey if they live in Houston. They wear the Boca Juniors and Argentina jersey, even though they will never play for Argentina.
Those same families will need to embrace the lower level professional teams if they are going to be a success. Crickets don’t buy tickets, beer or jerseys. Wearing your Barcelona, Liverpool or Man U jersey is awesome, but won’t help your local team and/or OUR current and/or potential fledgling system to stay afloat.
So then I ask you – who is the driving force in US Soccer?
Ha funny you put “Soccer is the largest youth sport in the US hands down. It is color blind.”
You know what you are right, it is the most mediocre driven soccer country in the world. Going on 30 years producing crap, relying on crap, believing in crap. You have all these youth playing, great but the what is the goal for this country when it comes to soccer. Are we from the top down, DRIVEN to develop world class players, national teams, or is all the crap people are saying about development etc lip service? Is the goal to be the best? Its not because ignoring the Latin American culture is stupid and senseless if you want to be the best in US.
I coach a lot of hispanic kids in my teams, if we talk about pro soccer and how to make it there, there is a passion a desire to try to make it all costs. Its culturally ingrained that being a pro soccer player is amazing and doing everything they can do to make it. But in US i found many of them wondering how they can make it to the top.
Now i got a problem with that, because the group that most associates with soccer in masses is not represented and is not the driving force, or talent pool the US leans on to develop. So you have a group who are not really and truly represented in US Soccer, and don’t name look at the current player pools or who got selected in the draft.
Let’s go further their culture is not represented in US Soccer, the style, everything is not fitting so as a group they maybe don’t have an affinity with the US. When you see what is valued in US Soccer you see players from their background have been ignored. I see Klinsmann has opened more doors to players but lets look at his predecessors and US soccer history. Its laughable they are not a driving force behind US Soccer. Germany saw, man we have a big Turkish influence in our nation that love soccer, lets evolve our soccer and our culture to make sure we can attract Turkish talents into our national team presence and our soccer makeup.
When you think French football you think Zidane, Thuram, Henry now Benzema, Nasri etc. Where are they coming from man?
Look at France you don’t think Africans/Middle Easterns are not the predominant group in French football, to the point where they wanted a quota to limit the talent coming from those backgrounds.
Come on MAN, the US is terrified of the same thing man and saying they won’t play for the US is a cop out. If you want to get a group to represent you, you make sure the game you play represents them, so they can identify with your style of soccer. If you don’t you do what the US soccer does. This is not about color to me, its about how can we define US Soccer Identity so that when someone names a player they say that’s American soccer.
Right now we are underdogs of an “Underdog Mentality” and we champion that as greatness, we take the Algeria 2010 goal and use that as a reference of how far we’ve come. Are we kidding, u made it out of a group in WC good job keep it moving. Klinsmann has been saying some of these things in 2010 saying we were not prepared mentally against ghana, and now how he went at US players about their mentality in making it to the top. The guys representing US Soccer do not want to be the best players in the world, that’s coaches, players, us soc pres etc. When you have a goal to be the best it “drives” you to work harder than anyone else, to beat all competition in front of you, hell almost drives you to the point of insanity to always improve yourself. THE WHOLE WORLD PLAYS THIS GAME, we need to fight Fire (passion, desire) with Fire. So why again is the Latin American culture not the driving force in America is the question i ask you?
If you can point me to the people in US soccer fed making that happen let me know so i can learn and get better. If not 3four3 is the most significant learning tool ive found in the US, so i guess its really a small small group who really want to be the best, and lets me know i got work to do.
Agree totally!
Couldnt have said it better myself. I am glad I found this sight. Keph, common sense also scares people for some reason. How long did it take for black people to even be allowed to play pro basketball?? The Irony. It was a tough pill to swallow but made everything better, more fans, more money. Why? More passion, creativity, skill. Why? Because it is cultural. Basketball was lived differently in the black neighborhoods, therefore the results. How can anyone argue these facts? We have a previous example of how overall success is achieved in Basketball in USA. How is it any different from soccer and the Hispanic in USA?? Given our previous history, you would think we were smart enough to acknowledge common sense.
Keph, to add to that, can you imagine an NBA team that plays a strictly fundamentals style of play, no behind the back, alley pop, windmill dunks?? How many black players do you think that team would have. Maybe still a few but certainly not one superstar. Now imagine a USA National Basketball team. The day will come for Hispanics in US Soccer but it seems really dumb that we are even debating this.
haterade is pulling the race card when you have no other answer.
People on here think they know much more then they really do, the majority of the LATINO population in the USA is Mexican/Central American. They’ve been playing the game as well for over a 100+ years. Mexico would NEVER qualify for World Cups if they had to play in CONMEBOL. This is EXACTLY what USA soccer head brass sees. Doesn’t matter if you live, eat, breath soccer if your not good enough, your not good enough. So just exactly WHY should the US cater towards this latino culture here?
US Soccer isn’t that arrogant, if Mexico was pumping out star players after star players to Europe, won some Copa Americas, a World Cup or 2 it would be an entire different story.
Also people need to be brutally honest, race in the USA is a HUGE factor, for everyone. Even moreso for your average USMNT World Cup watcher most white people, latinos, black, asian etc. will ALWAYS cheer for their home country before hand as they’re players relate more to themselves. EXCEPT the all black France/Fraud teams and the black English/Dutch players
“So then I ask you – who is the driving force in US Soccer?”
Real easy answer: Soccer moms!
Moms rule the world. They promote the culture in our societies and raise our kids. When mom is happy everybody is happy.
US Soccer will be on the right path when the majority of soccer moms are Latinas. If they’re hot moms then we can make exceptions.
Thank you Dr. Loco!!!!!
Mamas tiene que ser asi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aSqfTazM9Q
Hot moms (especially Latina ones) is a good answer. But while we think USSF has its hands on the rudder of the mother-ship, there are lots of lifeboats in the water going up stream, down stream, and over the waterfall. We have no one as the driving force. NSCAA just had a group hug. Everything is fine. That’s part of our problem. Klinsmann is trying, but pre-occupied with USMNT. He needs help.
USSSF is soccer governance and management; it’s not soccer leadership. These are very different things and require different personalities.
Jake, Why do you think that is? Do you see an effort by an MLS club to identify culturally with the Mexican American Fan with playing style, individual play, etc.?? We dont like to see 22 unskilled wild horses chasing a ball they cant control or dribble. Actually, we kind of hate even hearing about it. Look at Mexican league playing style and you will understand why MLS is not our cup of tea. Buying tickets and jerseys is a result of. You expect people that hate your style of play to blindly purchase this hoping that one day this team will change it’s playing style to something you actually want to watch??
Ok, let’s talk about football, Chelis in my opinion is just a HUGE Entertainer, he cries, screams, jumps, prays on the side lines, curses to the press, etc etc… But as a coach, I saw him run some practices and he has no clue on what he’s doing, I don’t try to offend anyone, but that is my point of view, he just tries to have a good vibe with players, but his assistants are the ones doing EVERYTHING! he does not gives anything to the game of football, he’s just a clown dude..hopefully Chivas can do good, but I have my reservations, and lets see how this guy behaves…I mean if you were crazy on the sidelines, crying and stuff, but if you knew what you were doing I wouldn’t say anything, but this guy, man! you will see…
One coach once told me in spanish (I will try to make sense in my translation), Trainer in spanish means coach, so he said, “In football, you have Trainers and then you have Entertainers” Trainers, teach, direct, develop, etc…Entertainers, just waste time, don’t know how to develop, get the best from the player, guide, etc..they just Entertain you, (making you waste your time and money) until you realize and is too late…
I am a fan of yours but I think you’ve missed the boat on this one.
People have not “hated” or “attacked” Chivas USA. They have either LAUGHED at them, because they haven’t won sh!t with, or without, Latino players. Or they have IGNORED them, because they’ve been in the Galaxy’s shadow.
I don’t care who their players are or where they come from. My favorite players in MLS have been Colombian, Nigerian, Mexican-American and, yes, Anglo-American. Why, because they’ve helped my team win.
Winning is the only thing that matters. Let’s see Chivas USA do that, and then start talking.
Well, with all due respect other clubs/people, have diff. idea of how they prefer to win. Barca choose to play a certain way and that’s how they define part of their identity. Others feel that it’s not enough to simply win but to win in a way that lines up with their ideology.
With the ideology an identity, fans identify with you win or lose.
It comes across as somewhat racist and not very smart. Especially at the youth level, It immediately makes Chivas seem like a bad choice if you are not Hispanic but have a player at that level. There are White (and other ethnicity) kids who are equally as passionate and skilled as any of the Hispanic players out there. Maybe they aren’t going to be exclusionary, but there statements make it seem like a non Hispanic player won’t necessarily get a fair shake with the team. If that is the case, it will be detrimental to them in many ways.
A lemon and limon are completely different.
Lemon:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Lemon.jpg
Limon:
http://www.taotv.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/los-beneficios-del-limon.jpg
“Chelís brings a unique style to the fraternity of coaches in MLS.”
“I believe that in MLS almost all the teams play the same,” he said last week in an interview with MedioTiempo.com. “I don’t have the sensibility to do what they do over there: It could be good as far as points and achievements, but I don’t think I have the profile to play that kind of soccer.”
“the goal is for Chivas USA to take on Chelís’ personality.”
Once the team has a personality Chelis can move on. Winning is not the only thing that matters.
A team needs to have an identity and a specific audience. If you don’t know why and who you are playing for then what’s the point?
Teams can’t be like the MNT and go hide in obscure towns when they play against. international teams.
“Once the team has a personality Chelis can move on. Winning is not the only thing that matters”
Dude, What the hell are you even talking about???? In professional sports, winning is the ONLY thing that matters! We’re not talking about u10 rec. It’s professional sports and winning is why you keep score. We wouldn’t know messi’s name if Barcelona was relegated to 4th division. Come on man, you can do better than that!
“winning is the ONLY thing that matters!”
Would you rather win in an empty stadium or lose in a stadium full of fans?
This is a curious statement. I get the impression most people throughout the world really like it when their teams win. Perhaps, it isn’t pretty but they still like it. If a team loses prettily, fans generally don’t like it. If it isn’t pretty and they lose then it is bad. I can see the Nou Camp being filled to watch jungle ball if they win championships. Perhaps, I am wrong.
I think this is a great move. We’re finally getting a club who is trying to develop their own identity. If the clubs in MLS simply wore black jerseys vs white jerseys I don’t think one could tell the diff between most clubs in terms of style of play.
Plus this is how passions and roots develop. One team identifies itself a certain way as well as its supporters and the others identify as “not that”.
The great European clubs were founded by specific groups in their cities. Certain workers in Manchester formed this club and others formed that. It’s about identity and MLS is too homogenous at this point.
Yes, you’re right Rob.
I don’t have an issue with Chivas policy. They did it few years ago and didn’t have good results.
They are merely following home-country tradition where a few MX League teams do same to full or partial extent. Even clubs in Europe (e.g., Spain) do similar. They are more homogenous societies, so easier done. More difficult in USA and connotations of racism.
Chivas can do what they want. What matters is W-L. If Mexican-American policy fails, they will scrap it pretty damn quick.
I actually like the fact that Chivas wants to be true to their roots. Takes balls to do in USA where everyone is so vanilla, status quo, be nice to everyone and hold hands around the campfire. I wish more had the balls to stand up and take a stance. Right or wrong, but do something and not be normal, like everyone else.
It’s not racist. Nobody claimed racism when Toronto took two Canadians in the draft. Southern California had a strong Mexican American culture. The club is connected to a huge Mexican club. Why shouldn’t they pick players that appeal to the community? Garber is always trying to stick players into clubs that appeal to whatever local ethnicity is dominant near a club. Chives wants a clear cultural identity. Soccer is entertainment, what’s more entertaining than winnIng?
Going to be an interesting year. Especially if Wynalda somehow gets the Red Bulls job and if Porter gets things going at Portland.
But Canada didn’t announce they would prefer only Canadian players, did they?
Why does that matter? They said they wanted local boys after the fact. The Chivas identity is Mexican American. I don’t see why that’s a problem.
Maybe a good way to do it, is just how they do it in Mexico, they only have Mexican players, so in the US they should only have US players, players that are born in the US,. no matter the background, and choose by an idea, philosophy, not a color or race…
“so in the US they should only have US players, players that are born in the US”
Again, Chivas USA wants to send players to the Mexican national team and Chivas CD. Can’t do it if players are not Mexican decent. It’s Vergara’s money. He might just dump the whole idea and sell it back to some other US fool.
Yeah I guess I missed the point, Vergara sucks! hahahaha
I get having an identity and doing things different, that’s all nice and well. I haven’t done enough research to know if they’ll be an exclusive club or not, but I just don’t think it’s smart to pick a team based on skin color and ethnic background. Picking players to play a certain style should be the aim, not picking by skin color. If you are trying to pick players that play a certain way and all 11 guys are mexican-american, so be it, but if you have 10 mexican-american guys, and the 11th is either a mexican-american who stinks or plays jungle ball, or a non mexican-american who’s brilliant and fits the system, you should break the pattern.
It’s not about skin color Kevin. It’s cultural identity. Besides, Mexicans come in all shades, from white to very dark, from indigenous people to spanish or south american origin. And each state in Mexico has different culture, tradition. It’s not like vanilla bean USA. It’s why second and even thrid generation Mexicans still speak Spanish and hold the homeland dear and follow cultural traditions. Something lost on watered down culture of USA.
Its incredibly stupid, the whole Chivas branding strategy is idiotic. I have spent a fair amount of time in Costa Rica and I know lots of Salvadorans here. The central americans that are a large share of the recent latino immigration are not going to be fans of a Mexican identity club. Get it, its not a latino club, its a Mexican club, and the central americans are not fond of Mexicans. If you pay attention to L.A. politics there are tremendous fault lines between the older Mexican-descent politicians and the newer central americans. That is not a coincidence.
Then, most Mexicans are not Chivas fans, chances of a family the grew up as fans of Pumas or America becoming Chivas fans are next to nothing.
Now, a latino centered identity could have gone over very well.
I think you are way off base here. Now, it would be interesting to hear what you think of developments at their academy.
One thing I have learned from time spent with Mexican-American players is that with them comes a following. No matter what jersey they’re wearing. That is one thing Chelis and Chivas are trying to take advantage of. If they pick a Mexican-American from Southern California, all of the sudden you get that kids entire family, all of his friends, and probably his neighborhood that he grew up in. You get all of his brothers, sisters, cousins, and friends as fans.
And like Kephern mentioned, if someone outside of the Mexican-American demographic fits the style of play that Chivas is seeking, they will take them. They will always have to meet that criteria first. I think they’ll look for Mexican-Americans to start, then latinos, then others. But always looking for the same thing… capitalize on their following and convert them all into followers.
As someone else mentioned… winning and losing is NOT the most important thing in professional sports. Look at the Oakland Raiders for example. An old, beat down, ugly stadium with a team that has a violent reputation which carries over to their fan base. Do the owners care? No, not really. Why? Because they have an ass in every seat in that stadium. Sure, they would like to have a winning team. But at the end of the day, all that matters is asses in seats.
That’s what Chelis and the new Chivas is trying to accomplish. Whether they do it or not…………. we’ll see.
To whom it may concern,
Beautifully written piece. I am very glad I have subscribed to your e-mails. I am in the professional circle as you had mentioned in your article about the recreational mentality. My concern with Chivas’s USA is what if there is a better player out there.Will they refuse to take him because of his ethnicity? It is not my fault I am not a Mexican American and I would love to play for Chivas USA. Should I give up all hope? However, do you think they are doing this because a group of mainly Mexican Americans on one team is for the best? If so, I find that childish and on Chivas USA’s part. Being different is good, but being close minded is bad. Chivas USA seem unwise to be making the comment that they want only Mexican Americans. I was now going to argue no other big teams would say this, but I think Barcelona would say something just like this. This brings me to the conclusion Chivas USA are doing this in order to become better, I just find it frustrating because I am not a Mexican American. At the youth levels in American soccer the hispanic kids always were together excluding the “white boy” and Chicas USA are only encouraging this.
Thank you for listening.
Best,
Cooper
Mr. Kleiban,
I don’t think you have been naive. I have been the one who has been naive. In your article you mention how this should not be looked upon racially. My immature emotions wrote my last e-mail to you. I was sad and angry to hear Chivas USA are looking to build around Mexican Americans. Living in SoCal playing with multiple youth teams the non-Hispanic kid (me) was always left out. To imagine an MLS Team doing that breaks my heart. However, after re-reading your article I see you are pointing out how you admire that Chivas USA have a plan. The coaches are different and act very professional. I apologize or my angry tone and look forward to hearing from you again.
Best,
Zev Cooper Taublieb
p.s. I will copy and past my e-mails to you on to the web page.
The same thing happens here on the East Coast except it is the Hispanic player that is excluded the pay to play model where the suburban, almost always white players can afford to pay the $2000+ fees that are necessary to play for these elite teams. Chivas USA is giving these players a chance. Now, there are good suburban players, but there are loads of hidden talent that is not seen that outweighs the suburban players. Chivas USA is doing something very similar to Athletico Bilbao where they only take Basque players so there is nothing wrong with Chivas USA style.
Gary,
I love this article and no matter what any of your respondents says, I am in complete agreement!
Whether it’s Chicago, Atlanta, Chattanooga, Dallas, or Charleston, whenever I’ve gone to a special game, the largest ethnic contingent in the crowd is Hispanic. Given that level of interest from the Hispanic community, why is it that the USMNT has historically had such limited Hispanic representation. The whole “pay to play” has been the perfect way to keep US Soccer a lily white suburban sport. Maybe it will take an all Hispanic team, like basketball’s Texas Western, to open up the slots.
I find it hilarious when someone like Vergara steps forward and people start throwing the racist tag at him.
Yet no one looks at the relative absence of Hispanic players on the MNT over the years and questions why. The ethnic community with the culture, history, and passion for the game remains dramatically under-represented in all official levels of the sport — how did that . Unfortunately, too many of the US players that have come through the “system” feel that their skills are being called into question whenever the issue of a more Latin/Hispanic style of play is encouraged — hence the animosity toward emphasizing more Hispanic players and the coincident reluctance to emphasize ball skills and dribbling by many (not all) of these players as youth coaches.
It appears that I will be changing my MLS allegiance to Chivas. Now it’s up to the Chivas management to deliver!
It’s interesting that a German has brought more Hispanics into the MNT. Chivas should easily be able to find 18 players that fit their plan.
The pay to play system and college to pro system keeps it lilly white. USMNT is NOT a reflection of best talent. It’s reflection of pay to play, college to pro. If we took out the Latino element, youth soccer and soccer in America would not be where it is today. The Lationo block (in my opinion) has the most talented, most passionate, best understanding of the beautiful game.
If the day ever comes where there is no pay to play, player id based on skill, tactical, creativity, the landscape of MLS and USMNT would change. I look no further than my son’s team for proof.
I’m saying that Klinsmann sees the Latino talent as being important for the future of the MNT. Gomez, Carona, etc. are being given chances. He sees pay to play as a problem too. Has pretty much said that suburban kids are too soft and don’t play enough.
I’d like to mention here in NYC there are some clubs based on cultural identity/neighborhood, polish, carribean, costa rican, Greek but they aren’t strictly just from their background.
Still you have Bradley as the only player from the National team playing in Serie A in Italy…
AMEN!
As someone with German roots, I can tell you that the best, most talented players are Hispanic, Central American, South American, Caribbean boys. I can also admit that the big corn-fed Nebraska type boys are beloved by many clubs and outfits like ODP. This game of charades has been played for years but no one is calling their bluff.
Fast and strong. Skilled ??? Some, but not in general.
Keep doing what you’re doing Chivas. Those who complain are jealous. Affraid the veil will be lifetd.
I know I said I wouldn’t post anymore, but this is too juicy!
As an Englishman, I see this as no different than NFL or NBA being mostly “white” up to early 1960s. Things slowly changed. The game got better. Wonder why?
Soccer in USA may naturally come to that transition. If we ever move away from pay to play, college, and big and strong – change will come rapidly as it did in NFL and NBA. We will then look back and wonder WFT! Same we do now when looking at old reels of crap NBA or NFL of bygone eras.
I entirely agree with this article. It is exciting to see a coach to push for something a little different and fresh in MLS with little to no regard of what others think. This is a key element that we are missing in this country. Also, I coach a U9 ( team based of mainly African American players and can say from experience that pay to play kills potential talent out there.. We have been working on implementing possession style of play with these kids for the past couple of seasons and some of them show promise. My fear for them has been that all of their potential will go to waste due to pay to play down the road.
I was one of the few white players in the Mexican league growing up and would get shit talked about me because I am white. I always waited to talk shit back to the other team in Spanish after doing something great. It took a couple seasons before I earned the respect of the players not on my team, but I did earn it because I could play as well as most everyone in the league and I speak Spanish. I am worried that there are other kids who could be overlooked like me whose soccer culture and style of play really is more like that of Mexico because those are the leagues and pick-up games we grew up playing. Does Chivas pass up a white kid from the suburbs like myself despite the fact I play the exact same style?
I completely understand the desire and need to create a club identity in playing style. However, if a team passes up better talent for the style of play simply because they don’t have the proper heritage, wouldn’t that put the club in the recreational camp instead of the professional camp?
I don’t think they truly intend on having zero gringos on the team. But they want to show off Mexican American talent and entertain. They’re sprinkled throughout MLS, why not give them a chance to show a different style and flair? The talk all around the league is about winning and mocks philosophies or styles of play. Always talk about how physical players have to be, because skill and flair are lacking. I want Chivas to light it up this year and rattle the MLS cage.
Players like you can play for RSL or Portland. If Chivas doesn’t win enough, they’ll adjust. Barcelona prides itself on Catalan players, but that doesn’t stop them from signing non Catalan players. Chivas is giving those players a “home” like the league team you played for. I hope they destroy Philly, Dallas and San Jose this year.
The answer is they won’t pass a player like that up. Look at their statement as to why they wanted Mexican American players, it was because of a style that relates to mexican americans, not because they are mexican. If you fit that style you will be picked, all coaches want quality, and identifying your style, and philosophy with help guide you in your selection process. So Alan Shearer or Lee Cattermole would not be players that fit their style so they would not be picked.
My son used to play on a team in SoCal that was 16 of 18 being Mexican (crossed the border) or Mexican-American. It was very chummy to say the least. We now play on a team that is complete opposite. As lilly white as you can imageine (only 2 or 3 non-whites). Huge difference.
The mostly Mexican side was skillful, understood the game, more passionate, more creative. The lilly white team (and I’m white by the way), is bigger and stronger but a step or two down in skil, understanding, creativity. The Mexican boys watch Mexican league and go to Xolos games. Our new team surfs, plays video games, skateboards.
I think vergara would be stupid not to include a player like you with that story. you love soccer and went to where you would develop skill. I think it would make his point even stronger. It’s like Larrty Bird going to play pick up in the hoods becuase he knew where the competition was.
By the way, the main problem is that Vergara doesn’t even know what he wants, he jusat wants money, he has changed coaches so many times in the Mexico, it’s crazy, he gets an idea of building an identity, so he pays millions to Cruyff to come and do what he did in barcelona back in the late 80’s early 90’s, after 6 months he changes his mind, fires Cruyff and changes the “identity” again, this has been going on, over and over since he has been the owner of chivas in Mexico, he changes coaches, team presidents, youth coaches, etc etc…for what??? In 10 years he hasnt been able to bring an identity to the team, now he wants to do that in the US??? Look what he has done in Mexico first, the only time they looked good, was when Real was head coach. they ahd a style of play they were producing players, but then Vergara thought, the hell with it, I want to change!! HAHAHA MAN! What a crazy man!
Really curious how Porter and the Timbers staff acted while they were there? In my mind, I had him isolating himself similar to how Chelis and Chivas did. Care to share?
You think Porter is a good coach?…I don’t think so.
That’s nice. Why?
Yes, I do.
He is a college level coach and that’s not a proven ground by any measure. He might become one hell of a coach someday but right now he isn’t. He was given a test just recently and he failed, woefully, I might add.
Judging Porter on his short stint with the U23’s is harsh, but good. Good because we recognized his potential and expected A LOT from him. We had a goal for him and he didn’t reach it. We have the right, in my opinion, to question him.
But I would argue that his time spent with the U23’s was much different than his day to day operations at Akron. It will also be different at Portland. I think Porter, and any coach for that matter, benefits from consistency. Seeing a group of players on irregular basis over a period of time is different than seeing players on a daily basis. And I am hoping that consistency will bring well rehearsed choreography and results.
Like Gary mentioned… I’m hoping he fields the right team. Which was the reason for my initial question. I was wondering if he got wrapped up in the hoopla with all of the other coaches or if he was there for business… like Chelis appeared to be. From what I have read, heard, and seen of Porter… he is the type of guy to isolate himself, study the players that catch his eye. I’m curious if he’s been influenced by outside forces already though. I’m hoping, really hoping, that he has not been tainted.
John,
I have no clue as to his thoughts, or how he interacted with the rest of the contingent.
His capacity for tactical choreography (something MLS coaches don’t have) is demonstrated.
Critical things left to be demonstrated are:
1) Management of professionals (psychological).
2) Proper player selection
Some of my previous thoughts:
Player selection comment 1
Player selection comment 2
Player selection comment 3
Player selection comment 4
As a coach, you live or die by the player selections you make. If you have an affinity to pick technically inept players, it doesn’t matter what kind of astute tactical choreographer you are, you are bound to produce a very poor on- the- field- quality. Having technically maladroit players is a recipe for a tactically incoherent side. Porter announced himself to the world from the wrong side of the fence and that in itself is not an easy fix.
“As a coach, you live or die by the player selections you make.”
Yes & No
“If you have an affinity to pick technically inept players, it doesn’t matter what kind of astute tactical choreographer you are, you are bound to produce a very poor on- the- field- quality.”
Yes & No
“Having technically maladroit players is a recipe for a tactically incoherent side.”
Yes & No
Sir,
You’re always presenting yourself as if you have expertise in these matters.
If you had this expertise, you would understand the circumstances under which all your assertions are false.
On a related note, this site will not tolerate anonymous people making ‘low quality’ contributions. One can criticize or oppose any position, so long as it is rooted in deep thought and of an exploratory nature. There are countless soccer destinations to be anonymous, throw out 1-liners, and try to position yourself as some sort of expert. Won’t happen here. And yes, I will be the judge.
Thanks sir! We all know you don’t have to be a horse to train horses. Sites like yours and people like you who challenge the culture and the state of game here are very necessary and important and I commend you for that. I am also fully aware you are the judge to your site. This does not mean you cannot be challenged and if you put yourself out there as someone with answers to what is hampering soccer in the US, then develop a thick skin and don’t throw snarky barbs.
Sometimes it takes courage to express ignorance and there have been many instances that you have done that here, at your site and I still do commend you for that. But to call a contribution ‘low quality’ says more about you than about the contributor. If you didn’t think those assertions were probing enough, then you shouldn’t have debated them though you could not elaborate on your ‘yes and no’
Anonymous?, yes but, expert?, you don’t that.
Looking over your past comments, seems I was a bit harsh here.
It just really irks me when anonymous people throw out brief statements as facts.
No worries Gary, you were not being severe!
I just resented that you’re irked by my opinions. These statements are not facts since soccer is nothing that is close to exact science. It’s just the way I see the game. The beauty of it is that we all see the game and analyse the game differently. It is, yes, the results that puts people in different categories.
http://aol.sportingnews.com/soccer/story/2013-01-23/chivas-usa-changing-identity-eric-avila-trade-draft-picks-no-discrimination
“We are not out to discriminate,” coach José Luis Sanchéz Solá said via the league’s website. “We are just working in the best interests of our group of investors and seeing how this can benefit those around them, mainly the LA fan base.”
Chivas USA wants real fans and to send players to the Mexican national team.
What up Gary, I had a question on Choco.
All these sites say he had a bad combine and that’s the main reason he wasn’t chosen high up in the draft as I am sure you and many people who knew Choco were shocked when his name wasn’t called. Then again these sites… yea you know. I hear “inconsistent”, “out of the game”, “didn’t playing well” and phrases similar to these ones a lot but from what you saw, did he just have an off few days? Was it very similar to the playoffs as it was hard for him to find the ball because his team doesn’t play the style of soccer that allows him play the best he can. Not that Toronto is bad, but I’m sure its tough for him to listen to garbage coaching just because some of the ‘best’ coaches couldn’t identify his strengths and talents. Just asking about your first hand experience watching him play with the ‘best’ players at the collegiate level.
Thanks!
“Ever since that first press conference that new owner Vergara gave, supporters and American writers seemed put off.”
I’m confused by this sentence and hence by much of what follows since Vergara is not a new owner but is the one who started the team back in 2005 with the same intentions that you are saying is some earth shattering, paradigm smashing event. Yes, he is now 100% owner instead of 50%. I remember the stir those intentions caused back then, but it wasn’t near the unanimous condemnation you characterize the current criticism. Nor have I seen any significant criticism this time around. Vergara is no visionary. He’s a Steinbrenner-esque egomaniac who fires coaches at the drop of a hat. He was still 50% owner of the team when they hired and subsequently fired none other than Johann Cruyff. The Johann Cruyff of the Established U.S. Soccer Community (TM) ?
That said, it seems to be a smart business decision to focus on Mexican Americans given that they play in the same stadium as the free spending Galaxy. The Galaxy will continue to buy expensive has-beens with well known names. Chivas would be foolish to challenge them at their game. Chivas should be able to build a loyal following and sell plenty of tickets with this strategy. And that’s really what it is. A commercial strategy. And that’s fine. But that’s all it is. They didn’t stick with it last time. Maybe they will now. It will be interesting to see.
DC United did pretty well with a more modest version of it building around Bolivians and a Salvadoran and competing quite well with Latin American teams especially when they defeated Vasco de Gama in the short lived InterAmerican Cup (Both games were on U.S. soil but still a noteworthy achievement)
One need not see explicit and outright ‘unanimous condemnation’, to appreciate what this country’s landscape is about. (Unfortunately, it seems if one is a supporter of this landscape, one is blind -or turns a blind eye- to what it is they are supporting anyways.)
Of course I’m not going to scour the web for material such as this:
http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/major-league-soccer/2012/11/21/3544080/brent-latham-the-chivas-model-doesnt-work-in-the-united
Most undermining remarks are distributed in forums, blogs, blog comments (some on this very page), social networks like facebook and twitter, media pundits, offline discussions, etc … all of which serve to weave the fabric of what the general sentiment is. And it’s a negative one when compared to the status quo landscape.
This is not about Vergara, or Chivas USA, or racism, or trophies.
This is ultimately about control. This is about cultural intolerance, and the attack on any ideas/position that aren’t in sync with status quo indoctrination. This goes far deeper than most ever go, will go, or maybe can go.
I don’t have a problem with bringing different cultures and ideas. That is good (and sorely needed) for MLS and for US Soccer.
I disagree with the stated objectives of Chivas USA to favor Mexican and Mexican-American players.
From a business perspective, it is wrong. It might be viewed as a differentiating brand but there are many flaws in that strategy.
From a sporting perspective, it is wrong. Why limit the player pool unnecessarily?
From a societal perspective, it is wrong. The way to promote equality is to treat people equally, not to shift which groups are treated preferentially.
The Chivas USA appraoch is most concerning from a culture/societal perspective. The idea that only Mexican players can fit into that culture is wrong, in my opinion.
Along those lines, I’m glad Barcelona (the model for what you refer to – and I agree – as the ‘gold standard’ here) has brought in Japanese and American (and many other nationalities) players to La Masia. That didn’t mean the sacrificed their approach or their culture – it meant they recognized race or ethnicity did not limit the ability of quality players to fit into the way Barcelona does things.
When I look at the pictures of the Barcelona USA teams and affiliate teams, I see faces of every race and ethnicity, but I assume they are all coached with the same approach and passion. I am glad they get that opportunity.
My opinion – bring the ideas, leave the exclusivist rhetoric behind.
You’re really missing the point.
Is the point of the team to only have Mexican and Mexican American players? I haven’t seen that. But those types of players are way more likely to play the “chives way” because they were raised playing and watching that way.
They are choosing players that will appeal to the local community, every team should. That’s why academies are so important, they should be window dressing or community out reach, they should be about developing local players for the club.
Business wise it could be right, if it brings in locals.
Sporting wise, it could be a boon, finding players that have been overlooked by the “bigger/more athletic” mentality of most MLS clubs. Last time I checked Liga MX is a much better league that MLS.
Societal wise… how many mexicans are playing in the NBA? yeah… exactly. Is that bad for society?
Should NOT be window dressing.
Let me be clear. I am ONLY talking about a stated preference for Mexican and Mexican-American players expresed by Vergara and Chelis in the November/early December time frame.
I am totally okay with a different mindset, philosophy, culture, etc. I welcome it. I am thirsty for it.
“My opinion – bring the ideas, leave the exclusivist rhetoric behind.”
Again, this is not how private companies, business entities, ethnic groups, political groups, religious groups, activist groups, etc operate. There is no real equal opportunity for everyone and everything.
Ironic.
Why your company’s competitor won’t hire you?
http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/now-hear-this/4405856/Why-your-company-s-competitor-won-t-hire-you
I do appreciate Gary’s point of view here.
He has stated here and elsewhere that essentially the prevailing culture is broken and this type of move shakes it up. Perhaps.
I don’t view it as the only path to change though, and other more effective forces are already at work:
1) If clubs like Barcelona USA commit to do things the right way and continue to be succesful agains the rigid and out-of-date club culture that is prevalent
2) If coaches like Brendan Rodgers and others continue to find success with a more fluid dynamic approach reflective of Barcelona
3) If coaches like Caleb Porter and even Chelis and others win in MLS with a different approach, others will copycat.
… than others will catch on and copy those approaches. In short, if an alternative approach (such as possession-oriented tiki-taka and related variants) is succesful at all levels then others will copy it.
There are two ways to balance the scales and effect change on the soccer landscape in this country. One it to attempt to balance the scales by being exclusive in the opposite direction that you perceive others are exclusive, creating competing options. The second is to enact an example of the right approach which others would freely join once they see and understand the benefits.
The first comes at a heavy cost and creates opponents who will never accept your point of view because their own pride has been threatened. The second way doesn’t.
My advice for this and all other situations – Do what is right. All the time. For the right reasons. Regardless of what others say or do.
Hi Eric,
I just want to address one thing here, as the others are too difficult.
** You can’t ‘copy’ a style of play. (the coaching front)
A ‘style of play’ is a specialty. Like neurosurgery or cardiovascular surgery. Yes, it’s all medicine, but one practitioner can’t just up and do the other. He essentially has to start from ground zero, spend years and years and years and years on it, and in all likelihood will never be as good as the guy who’s already dedicated his life to it (not just because of the massive head start, but because of all the existing influences and habits developed that do not translate to the new field). Not to mention the constant allure of going back to ‘what you know’ instead of the suffering, sacrifice, and experiencing the series of failures required in the transformation.
Your neighborhood MLS coach, college coach, youth coach can not just change and adopt another style regardless of how successful it’s been proven to be. The barrier to entry is enormous! He goes from having expertise in his style, to being a complete novice.
And truthfully, I’m still not painting an accurate enough picture. I haven’t even spoken to how culture influences the possibility of a successful transformation.
No offense but I can’t believe you are comparing styles of soccer to the difference between neurosurgery and cardiovascular surgery. First of all the surgeon is the soccer player, not the coach. Teachers can teach from a book and assuming they are good teachers (note, what is good for one kid is not for another, we all learn differently) should have little problem adjusting to a different philosophy as long as they embrace it.
Soccer is a fairly simple game, we like to make it more complicated then it is. Changing coaching philosophies is not the barrier. It’s the time it takes for those coaching changes to be effective that is the issue. Taking a kid that is 15yrs old who played kick and run is going to be difficult to switch to a possession type of player. Why? Because they lacked years of technical training at a time when they were most ‘sponge-like’.
My point is that any good coach can adopt to a different style, it’s being a good coach in the first place that is the difficult challenge and those features are independent of the style. Point being that teacher can be a good teacher whether they are teaching History (kick and run) or Math (possession based).
I think you meant to say this.
Point being that a teacher cannot be a good teacher when they are teaching Doodling (kick and run) instead of Art (possession based).
No. Kick and Run is just another style or ‘subject’. Possession soccer is another style. They both require fundamental methods of teaching to get across to a player. Neither is more difficult to ‘teach’ than the other. Difficulty of execution is debatable. Just because you prefer Math (possession based) to History (kick and run) does not make one harder to teach than the other. By kick and run I’m not talking about blindly kicking it but more the down the wings counter attacking method employed by many pro level clubs.
Kick and run takes the same to teach as possession??? Wow. No wonder we haven’t advanced.
This is dead on. The difference between cardiology and neurology would be more like coaching youth basketball vs coaching youth soccer.
What we are talking about is the difference between basic surgery and neurosurgery.
The same game, the same core elements and fundamentals, a different approach depending on advanced techniques.
And general surgeons become neurosurgeons all the time. In fact, to my knowledge, every surgeon out there has been through a general surgery residency prior to their advanced training.
I know several white boys who definitely grew up coaching kick-and-run soccer that are fairly effective possession soccer coaches. They aren’t at the level of the Kleibans, but to be fair, they aren’t sitting on top of the Los Angeles talent pool either.
The point is that it is a straight out lie that non-Mexican players can’t coach or play this style or that this culture can’t be established within a heterogeneous group.
I would agree skill is color agnostic. However, how do we explain the disparity between skill level of “white” and Hispanic kids? It’s generally accepted Brazilian kids have “Samba” “Jogo Bonito” in their DNA (it’s part of their cultural identify). Kids from Italy, Spain, England, and so on . . . have common characteristics. USA is very multi-cultural and we have groups of ethnic backgrounds. It is true that we find different types of players unique or commone to certain groups. I don’t think it’s color. I think it’s cultural, tradition, environment they grow up in that is biggest influence. Of course, difficult to prove quantitatively. So we fall back to observation. I know Gary has discussed influence of culture numerous times. I think he’s on to something. Culture and sub-cultures. Some have different degrees of what I’m loosely referring to the gold standard . . . or mental psyche that makes up kids that come from certain cultures and sub-cultures. USA needs to find a way to tap into the best of the best in terms of culture / sub-cultures.
I would poin to most South American countries to “prove” color is not the unique factor to soccer skill or natural ability. Most of those countries are very ethnically mixed (e.g., Brazil). It has more to do with the cultural identity, their passion. Football is a deep passion in those countries and in part make up their national identity . . . regardless of color, race, religion, tribal group. The expectations of top footballers is immense. Something we are unfamiliar with in USA. That intense drive and passion and tradition produces the talent. I can say with 100% certainty that the closest we have to this in USA is the Hispanic community. It’s why we have so many Mexican leagues (adult and youth). And Hispanic community often outnumbers “white” groups in attendance at MLS games.
Race, ethnicity, culture are all variables. You may not want to go there but they do exist. Many of you are probably still stuck in a recreational mentality. I’m not here to convince you. MLS is still evolving racially and not near it’s equilibrium.
Racial Breakdown in Professional Sports
http://www.pawgrouplp.com/racial-breakdown-in-professional-sports
Race factors into evaluation
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-gerhartstereotype042010
Table 1. Changing Demographics in Major Sports.
NBA
In 1949 there were no black NBA players.
In 1950 Chuck Cooper was the first black signed by an NBA team.
In 1958 the proportion of blacks in the general population approximated the percentage of blacks playing professional basketball.
In 1998, 77% of all professional basketball players were black.
NFL
In 1944 there were no blacks in professional “white” football.
In 1946 Marion Motley is the first black in “white” professional football.
In 1960 the proportion of blacks in the general population approximated the percentage of blacks playing professional football.
In 1985, 52% of all professional football players were black.
In 1998 65% of all professional football players were black.
MLB
In 1946 there were no blacks in “white” MLB.
In 1947 Jackie Robinson was the first black to sign with a “whit” team
In 1957 the proportion of blacks in the general population approximated the percentage of blacks playing professional baseball (11-12%).
In 1998 15% of all professional baseball players were black.
Can’t refute that Dr. Loco. I think we all knew that anyway. But what I’m asking is “it it color” or is it something else? I for one belive if makeup of players changes as the way NFL or NBA did, we will see an improvement. But since soccer is primarily played with the brain (as opposed to short bursts of physical ability), what happened in NFL and NBA may not apply? It’s an interesting topic and something we won’t solve on this forum. Time is always best proof. US soccer an evolve in many directions. If color/race/ethnic make up of MLS changes more along NFL or NBA and the league improves . . . then time will prove it out.
But how to you explain Spain (who are Caucasian) or Germany or Netherlands? It’s not all color. Has to be something else. Color alone can’t explain multi-cultural countries like Brazil or Argentina.
“Most of those countries are very ethnically mixed (e.g., Brazil).”
Yes but not color-blind. Your environment is interwoven in every fiber of a player. You cannot separate the two.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBNUOsrIiAs&playnext=1&list=PL0275EB867BE5E37B&feature=results_main
Specializations in surgery are 1 or 2 years max. They all go through general surgery first, which you guessed it, rotates through all of the specialties anyway. Regardless, coaches aren’t the surgeons, they are the educators. The surgeons are the players. And there’s no reason why any coach worth his salt couldn’t change philosophies, particularly at the youth level. Essentially, one is looking at the long ball which requires big fast athletes with combos and overlapping runs and the other method requires technical skill with first touch, passing, movement off the ball and vision. It’s not rocket science people. It’s just a question of getting coaches, players and parents to buy into something other than what they are being peddled right now.
“My advice for this and all other situations – Do what is right. All the time. For the right reasons. Regardless of what others say or do.”
But this is not reality and not always possible unless you are willing to be lose your job, incarcerated or killed for it.
Ha! You know who you sound like? You sound like the kickball club coaches who I’ve had this debate with from the other side.
The conversation goes like this:
Me: Possession socer is the best development approach, period. Here are the reasons.
Them: Totally agree.
Me: ??? Why don’t you coach possession soccer, and the fundamentalsa that go with it – first touch, tactical positioning, and so on down the line.
Them: Well, (hem, haw) fill in an excuse.
You have a lot more in common with them than you think. I can get you their numbers if you want to go hang out with them.
The good news is that in this particular case, although job loss is a possibility I don’t think anyone is going to get incarcerated or killed over how the coach youth soccer in the US.
I also don’t think you are objective. You have an agenda on this topic and it isn’t even thinly veiled.
It wasn’t long ago that you said: Use the 3 C’s in selecting players – culture, color, character.
Seriously? A proponent of utilizing ‘color’ as a criteria in selecting youth soccer players. Sure, let’s discriminate against kids based on race, genious!
I hope Gary doesn’t agree with you. I can’t think of an occasion he has ever seen fit to contradict that sentiment, but I’m hoping that like me it is just because he says wading into that discussion isn’t fruitful.
I have to say I read and agree with many of your post but you are a dipshit on this one ( you like plain simple language). I love how a growing minority group can discriminate on the basis of nationality and that should be ok? Wake up, everything different isn’t always better. I like your outside the box thinking but you need to be careful of becoming just a caricature of yourself. You rail against others for not seeing what you see as simple in the game. So here is a simple concept, a organization is going to discriminate against a national group and it should be ok? You have become what you complain the most about ignorant. Chivas US was the biggest mistake in MLS history, they would be better off contracting the team.
Wtf are you going on about? If a club in the MLS said… you know what, the french play better than most US players, we’re going to base a team on french players, it’s not possible to do, but let’s say they could, no one would be like, THAT’S DESCRIMINATION! Because we all know that the french players probably ARE better.
The Mexican American players aren’t being chosen because of the color of their skin, but because of their experiences and abilities, which are different than your run of the mill “big athletic” type of american players. Chelis made DAN KENNEDY (a white guy) his captain.
Do you honestly think that if Chelis scouted and found a white Neymar or Chicharito, he would not scoop him up for the team? I wouldn’t be surprised if in the end the team is only 50-60% Mexican/Mexican American.
Face it LIGA MX is better than the MLS, guess what it’s full of? You see any clubs outside the USA saying, hey we want to be the next Seattle! the next DC United!
No. Grow up. This is about players, about the game and about the club’s roots. It should be a wake up call to everyone. Parity in the MLS creates mediocrity. They’re going to TRY to create a Mexican American team and do something different than most of the lame crap that MLS puts on the field.
Steve, WTF (guess in this forum you have to talk like you are from the hood to be cool) are you going on about? How long has LIGA MX been around and how fast have many MLS teams caught up? Stop drinking the cool-aide and open up your eyes to reality. What is Chivas most known for (besides being one of the best Mexican teams) yes that’s right only Mexicans play for them so get off it.
You are in America Stevo and they only watch the best. American’s will sell out stadiums and break attendance records even to watch a friendly when Manchester United or Barcelona come to town. Americans have never followed losers or lower level leagues. NFL is the most popular league in the US and football it’s most popular sport. How many second divisions do you see?? What happened to all the summer leagues that tried to form? How do baseball minor league or basketball D league draw??
So with that said, MLS understand from the old NASL days that if you have the have and have not’s in the league it will fold. I hate socialism and don’t like how these other sports have salary caps as an owner should be able to do what they want and spend what they want but the facts remain, people will not spend money to go watch a second rate team. Understand the culture of clubs being older than 100 years isn’t here but it’s starting.
Maybe this is something that has merely been lost in translation or just a horrible choice of words for expressing the idea…
It is one thing to say “I want my players to be able to play ‘X’ style”. It is another to say “I want my players to be of ‘X’ nationality”. The former is admirable and even preferable recruitment. The latter is how things from the Chivas camp have been reported. I think they are saying the latter and quite possibly meaning the former. The reason so many are grabbing their torches and pitchforks is because they only hear the latter without any context suggesting the former.
This is a fair assessment.
At first they were saying ‘X nationality” (in the November-December time frame). They have backed off that somewhat but not completely.
Now rather than stating a mandate to move towards a wholly (or as whole as possible) Mexican/Mexican-American roster it is stated more along the lines of a preference for Mexican heritage or nationality.
It isn’t as bad but it is still a problem – what people are asking is why not just select the best players in terms of talent and fit to the team. Why put a pre-condition on it of any kind.
@ Ccrolla
They have no credibility with this because of their sister club in Mexico. One of the main selling points for this is there isn’t any Non Mexican players who play for them. I think they said what they meant and are trying to backtrack a little because of how bad it’s played. I’m amazed on this site full of enlightenment how different is always right.
discrimination…no it’s domination
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36cRQ9HIyfY
@erick ..watch the Mexico vs. Denmark friendly tonight and you’ll understand what Chelis is after.
Want to see more of this from the USA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTZOcofp_sc
I understand the style but you can’t tell me no gringos, and you are a fool if you think that isn’t what they are saying. I love to watch this Mexican team and upset that our youth system isn’t producing players like Mexico is doing. With that said the US is doing better and still has a long way to go. Our size is a big problem and our multicultural differences.
We have so many people with so many different ways of wanting to develop players. In Holland, everyone has the same idea on how the game should be taught. So even the rec level player in Holland is getting a lot better idea of the game then most of our Academy players.
Erick, if Chivas wants to be different and say no gringos, why is it such a big deal? Let them be who they are. Athletic Bilbao has a policy of using only Basque players and this puts them at a competitive disadvantage vs other La Liga clubs. Regarding our size being a problem for youth development, there are advantages and disadvantages to being a large country. However, successful youth development is not predicated on the size of a country. Brazil is the world’s fifth largest country and its large size did not prevent it from developing scores of world class players and winning numerous world cups. In contrast, Holland is a relatively small country and they also produced a number of fantastic players and their national team appeared in several WC finals.
The Atletico Bilbao argument is a red herring. I wouldn’t argue against their policy, nor do I argue against the policy of Chivas parent club. A policy to emphasize local or national players within a domestic country make sense.
What doesn’t make sense to employ that in a different country. I doubt the Atletico policy would be as well received if it called exclusively for British players instead of local players.
If Chivas USA wants to use a policy of only utilizing Californian players, good on them. Several of the Canadian teams have expressed a similar sentiment, and to my knowledge no one has complained about that.
A policy of using players only from your local region is a lot different than what Chivas USA has proposed, which is a policy of preference not only towards players largely outside their region, but towards a fierce rival of the home nation.
The culture argument is different. Once upon a time a bunch of Dutch guys went and established their philosophy of the game at Barcelona and it seems to have worked out well.
If Chivas USA wants to bring a style influenced by the Mexican soccer culture, I think that is fantastic. But I fail to see how a Brazilian, a Portuguese, a Japanese, a British, or even a Gringo soccer player who had the right technical qualities and style would fail to fit in simply based on race or culture alone.
It was simply amazing to see how seamlessly Joe Allen fit in when given the opportunity to play within the right tactical setup with Swansea under Brendan Rodgers last year.
Clint Dempsey has the skill set and mentality to easily fit into the type of style Chelis is attempting to put in place – it would probably be a more natural fit for him than the EPL offense where he put up 20 goals last year.
There is a good argument for bringing in a new philosophy or style or cultural mentality (or all three). There is no good argument for asserting only a particular nationality can fit into that.
For those unaware – Joe Allen is a Welshman and the tactical setup he fit into seamlessly was Brendan Rodgers variant of tiki-taka.
That is just one example of a player developed in a completely different culture and developmental environment and yet fit well and excelled in a fluid, possession-oriented style.
He played in a Xavi type role and completed greater than 2100 passes (at a completion percentage of greater than 90%) in ~2800 minutes.
I know the stats aren’t the whole story, but if you watched him on the 2011-2012 Swansea squad you know what I’m talking about and the play backed the stats up.
MG —
I agree with you on the Chivas issue. But as my dad once told me: “if you give away free money, someone or some group claiming ‘unfair’ will complain.” He also said, “when you find those type of people, it’s not worth the argument. Just walk away and smile”.
Hi Kana, I think your dad gave you very good advice.
Thanks.
“There is no good argument for asserting only a particular nationality can fit into that.”
Why do you care so much about it? It’s Vergara’s money and he can do whatever he wants as long as he is not breaking US laws.
I don’t think there would be so much argument if Barcelona decided to form a MLS team…Barcelona USA to promote players to FC Barcelona and the Spanish national team. Their requirements might also be Spanish decent or Spanish speaking to help in the successful transfer to the culture of Spain and their people.
The US is an inexpensive farming system for the world’s top teams. What is so wrong with exploiting it especially if we are just letting it go to waste?
I said I disagreed with it. I didn’t say MLS should legislate against it.
The entire Chivas USA strategy is ridiculously stupid – it doesn’t ‘tap into’ that Latino community. In fact it alienates a large share of the Latino community. Many Latinos aren’t Mexican and many Mexicans aren’t Chivas fans.
This is one reason why Chivas USA was dead last in attendance last year with the most gameas less than 10000 fans. Their ‘refocused’ branding which further reduces the sliver demographic they are targeting will only make it worse.
If you want to attract Latinos, offer a product on the field that is both attractive and high-quality from a technical perspective.
This happens to be the same rule for attracting any demographic.
My point above being that this problem will take care of itself when the Chivas USA brand doesn’t sell. Any misguided rules to raise the degree of difficulty even further by artificially limiting the player pool will only magnify the problem.
Why do I ‘care’ – well I generally think outright racism or xenophobia are bad. So I think this bad.
You stated earlier I must dislike you. I don’t know you. I disagree strongly with some of the things you have posted on this site. Particularly I think people that advocate excluding kids from development opportunities on either on those bases are repulsive. That goes for both those within the establishment and those outside.
I have wondered why you are allowed to post such things and why Gary never comments. If I were running a site and I was a visible surrogate of a charity which asks for donations to help fund the requisite development environment and travel and I was attempting to spread that club philosophy to other states nationwide such that ultimately the club would represent a wide number of races I would tell you to shut the hell up because my club didn’t want to be associated with that nonsense.
“I disagree strongly with some of the things you have posted on this site.” Visceral reaction. It’s understandable.
I have never advocated excluding any kids. Let every child that wants to participate come. Go way back. I don’t even believe in “tryouts” which very few on this blog agree with me.
Xenophobia is definitely bad. Tell that to Congress and 1/2 of the population in the US.
You and I are probably more similar than you think.
” If I were running a site and I was a visible surrogate of a charity which asks for donations”
That’s the problem with youth sports in the US. Everyone here thinks it should be a non-profit and run like a “charity”.
If Gary considers my comments are junk, dishonest, and offensive he can simply delete them.
She would make a scary soccer mom but I’m sure her kid might be the next superstar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRQMjBIAyA4
MG,
I probably didn’t have the time I wanted to post and maybe didn’t fully explain. I agree size can be an advantage and disadvantage but the main problem for me is all of the different ideas of how the game should be played. Even with Brazil’s size, there is a football culture there and a general understanding, a Brazilian way to play. We are a melting pot with so many ideas and nothing solid to guide development of players.
If you look at all major clubs (around the world), they have a style or a system of play they want to develop. Until recently, we as a nation haven’t put out a blueprint to follow on developing players. If you don’t have a curriculum your club can follow you will always end up short of developing players to their maximum potential. In most clubs in the States, a coach will be with a team 2, 3 years then hand them off to a coach that may have a different idea on how the game should be played, or the new coach may not even know what these players have even worked on.
This is getting better with time as more and more clubs have like minded coaches trying to follow a same philosophy on development, yet there is still a long way to go but I feel much better then in the 80’s and 90’s.
Erick, thanks for clarifying your point. I agree that the clubs here are all over the place in terms of their approaches to youth development and even the coaches within the same club could promote very different philosophies and styles of play. Regarding the culture, yes, I think that culture (including football culture) is important. and it will affect youth development.
Just reread the posts. Looks like Gary has had to do some cleanup on the name-calling comments. First time I’ve actually seen that on this site. Hope it’s the last! This is one of the few, if only, sites where the discussions are civil, interesting and informed.
One comment about an earlier posting (Jan 24) : the posting referred to the necessity to win in order to put fans in the seats and used Barca as an example that even if they played kick-ball and won the Barca fans would be there. I’m afraid that I have to disagree specifically regarding Barca and additionally Real Madrid. I’m afraid that if either team played that way, the players would be boo’ed off the field and management would be replaced. At least in laLiga, style does make a difference.
With all that said, while fans will be more patient waiting for a skilled team to put it together, ultimately they will have to produce
From a previous latino posters contribution, I am a Vanilla Bean white Gringo, a REAL LATINO (I am Italian American), I have absolutely ZERO problem with this Vergara’s guy stance on wanting Mexican players only. All USA Professional LEagues goals are nothing but to make money, there is no relegation or incentive other then to make money off the sporting FRANCHISE. If he can market it to the Mexicans here and cash in on Chivas, all the more power to him. I would possibly do the same in his shoes.
In Zenit St. Petersburg they only want white players and no homosexuals, I have ZERO problems with that. It’s their club, country and culture and ultimately entertainment. Nobody should have a problem with it either.
Gary you might want to get some definitions straight, latino means of latin origin, the vast majority of Mexican Americans or Central Americans are MESTIZOS.
“In Zenit St. Petersburg they only want white players and no homosexuals, I have ZERO problems with that. It’s their club, country and culture and ultimately entertainment. Nobody should have a problem with it either.”
WTF dude!!?
You have no idea what you’re talking about and here lies the problem. At least with Chivas USA you can argue that Latino players are more culturally involved in the sport (which is somewhat true, but the excuse is limited) However here you say that you have no problems with a soccer club flat out discriminating against people who just happen to be “unlucky (in your case)” and that’s fine. It’s not fine. There is a legit reasoning behind this and it’s not related to the topic at hand.
But I will say this Zenit does have a black player (Hulk) and it’s more the small majority of fans shouting the White and straight nonsense.
As for Chivas USA, it’s ok for them to do this under their constitutional right, however business wise it’s not really good for them in the public eye even under the Mexican community. There are tons of white, black, and asian players that wipe the floor skill wise with what Chivas is preferring.
I think the post above embodies another problem of what is wrong with the American soccer community in terms of development and our status on the international scene.
This is identical to what the Mets did several years ago:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/18/sports/baseball/18mets.html
The best players at the time happened to be Latin and they leveraged it into marketing “los Mets”. These teams are businesses. There are lots of ways to make money: I would be willing to bet that clever marketing is more cost and time effective for making money than building a consistently winning team but they are not mutually exclusive.
The elements we have discussed are not identical.
Tailoring marketing to a particular demographic. Good.
Tailoring the culture of the team to a particular ideal. Good.
Selecting players who fit the philsophy, style, and culture a team wants. Good.
Utilizing race or nationality as a player selection factor. Bad.
The only thing some people have objected to is the preference in player selection.
Questions about whether a white goalkeeper who has performed at an All-Star level can stay on with the team and whether a Colombian-American domestic star can stay are absolutely freaking ridiculous.
To Chelis credit, once he and Vergara calmed down a little bit, they quit saying stupid things and started articulating a cultural emphasis vs a race or nationality preference. I have no problems at all with that approach.
Kephern,
Emails like this is what the masses need to read. Kudos for a great post!
The high school to MLS system helps promote elitism in the sport. Many of the USDA clubs are high price, which also limits the pool. Hopefully one day, MLS will realize the financial potential of the untapped masses. A huge obstacle is college. As I said before, “what does SAT and GPA have to do with developing professional quality soccer players in global sport?” Answer: NADA! Two mutually exclusive situations. In fact, the more they merge, the more it negatively influences the other. Any variable that is not soccer related and influences player development is not optimal (paraphrasing what Gary said).
I look no further than the USDA club my son is affiliated with. Lots of rich parents with kids who see soccer as another paid activity. A good portion of these kids have no ambition to be pro (yes, my son talks with them and they talk about the future and my son is often amazed at how many kids are just there for fun and no desire to turn pro . . . so he ask’s “why are they even here”?). Parental pressure for the kids to get a degree and become white collar worker like them. That’s fine, but I question if that’s what we need to become a proper footballing nation. It works in the college to pro paradigm, but NOT in rest of the world and NOT if we want to be to their level.
To be world class players, we need to identify and develop players who not only have the skill and ability, but the psycological make-up as well. The passionate ones who have that burning desire. The ones who spent hours on their own. I’ve yet to ever hear a coach concern himself with understanding how much time and effort his players spent outside of training. It’s an indication of passion and commitment. Coaches should be concerned with this aspect of player development and mentality. They have a need to know who the dedicated ones are. Those players need more of coach’s attention. In fact, the coach needs an entire team of these sorts of players.
But I’m a realist, in a pay to play system, this will never happen. “I pay, therefore I play” mentality.
If we ever want to compete with the world in football, our kids need to live the lifestyle from about U14 and above. Football 24/7. Not saying they need to skip school or get bad grades. What I’m saying is the ones who are serious, passionate need to understand it’s not going to practice 3x a week for 1.5 hours and a few games here and there. Those hours are small percentage a month (something like 2% if you do the math).
The best analog in USA is kids who play pick-up basketball daily for hours and also play high school. They dress and think the basketball lifestyle. That along with physical ability is why USA is so good in basketball. Talent along wouldn’t do that. The passion, the lifestyle is the fuel that feeds the fire. We don’t have that in USA for soccer. Go to Europe or South America and you see kids living the football lifestyle. The Latino community is the only group in USA to come close.
It may not pay dividends on the pitch, but Chivas is tapping into the right segment to find true footballers. Many new ideas are lambasted and even fail. But if rooted in a solid foundation and belief, it can happen. La Masia is good example.
Kephern, NFL recycles same mediocre coaches. Same probably applies to NBA, MLB, MLS.
http://www.usaonrace.com/latest-news/nfl-rooney-rule-eight-men-out-no-african-americans-in
Typical US soccer coach with a “day job”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-XJu0UyJ1g
I want some limonada. Will the USMNT lose gracefully?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=nQrjMyiWook&NR=1
Congrats to Brian on taking over at Chivas USA U14! I look forward to you rocking the boat in youth academy soccer. It’ll be really interesting to see how you evolve that team. I suspect you have already scouted new players to bring in and assessing current players. Curious about the dynamic of going there and working with current staff. Does you get to dictate to their scouts what you want? What to look for?
Must be an exciting and busy time.
I came across this site / article while looking into what’s going on at Chivas USA. Turns out they had / have deeper issues than player racial / cultural background. Interesting to hear Gary’s take as his brother is at Chivas.
I for one think MLS leadership has to get off its high horse and admit that it’s not sustainable to have two franchise’s in LA with same stadium. Try San Diego, Santa Barbara, Irvine . . . anywhere else in SoCal.
But MLS will hold on to pride and make more bad decisions. They also don’t want to look bad with a franchise going belly up. What does that say about the league when they are expanding? Miami has had historical issues with teams. Is Atlanta strong enough? Is the on field product enough to sustain and not avoid another Chivas-like collapse? MLS leadership cannot hide it’s head in the hole. They gotta face facts about on field quality and growing the game as opposed to expanding francise. Need the former two to make the latter work.